Knot Heading In The Right Direction

[Eamonn]

Talking to a few Scoutmasters last night at R/T, it came to light that at the First Aid Meet which was held over the weekend the Scouts were asked to tie a bowline. I have no idea about the how or why they were asked. But it turned out that hardly any of the Scouts in the District could tie a simple knot.

I find this utterly shocking and almost disgusting. OK, I know that this year I will meet my half century and I may well be a traditionalist. I don't see any harm in the "Other Stuff" that we do. The troops that go off and see a movie or play crazy golf and all that good stuff. I do however firmly believe that we should be good at Scoutcraft.

Looking at the District, each and every troop does have an adult that knows this basic Scouting skill. We have 21 Troops, 19 of these have Scoutmasters who went through the old Boy Scout Wood Badge course. They were there when the Commando belt and pioneering project were part of the course. So I'm guessing that they ought to know how to tie a darn Bowline!!

This sort of thing really makes me very upset. We have almost an entire District that is full of Scouts who will hang back from doing the adventurous and fun activities because they have never mastered the basic skills needed to take the next step.

I was in my "Your just the person I needed to see" mode last night. This is where I help fill in the spots for different District Committees. Normally I have it all done by now but this darn back of mine has me playing catch up.

The now District Commissioner, was the District Activities Chair. I had selected his replacement,back in November and I was helping him select a group of leaders that would be the new Activities Committee. I had also changed the job description slightly. We used to have High Adventure, come under the Camping Committee, but they never seemed to get around to it, so I moved it so it now comes under the Activities Committee.

The new Activities Chair. Is very much a traditional Scouter. He is an ASM in the troop which OJ belongs. After the meeting we discussed things and this bowline thing came up. I think just about everyone who was there last night was aware that I was appalled. He said that he was worried about the troop and what had happened at summer camp. They had 28 Scouts attend Summer Camp and 15 or 16 leaders, most of these are on the charter as being ASM's. He said that they rarely if ever left the site apart for at meal times and that while they are all nice guys, they don't know anything. Most are trained, but they have no idea about the basic Scouting skills.

We try to have a couple of Scoutmasters or guys who do know basic skills offer a session at camp for guys like these ASM's. But this bunch decided not to leave the troop camp site.

I am all for parents getting involved with the troop, but it would be a very cold day down yonder when I would want a couple of adult patrols at summer camp doing squat. I think the only reason they were there was to keep an eye on their kid. Even this is not good. What happens when their son asks Dad who is also an ASM for help and Dad says that he doesn't know. What message are we sending to the Scout? Is the message "Hey my Dad is the ASM and he doesn't know, so it can't be a big deal?"

Eamonn

[scoutldr]

You sound almost as "shocked and disgusted" as the last time I saw an Eagle Scout candidate butcher the Scout Oath and Law at the BOR. Unfortunately, Scouting may have unwittingly taken the same path as our schools where graduating is more important than learning. After all, we're not allowed to "retest" at a BOR. It's not about learning...it's about getting the "signoff" in your book.

[ManyIrons]

I share your anguish.

 

Several years ago while attending an Outdoor Leaders Course the Scouter teaching the knot skills session asked if anyone needed help tying the bowline. To my utter amazement a young man with a very new looking Eagle Scout square knot on his shirt raised his hand. Made me wonder -- almost out loud -- if it were possible to clip the corners off a square knot.

 

[Eamonn]

I can see how if a skill is not used it can become rusty. I in no way think that tyeing 101 knots is the be all and end all of what being a Scout is all about. I do wonder what Scouts do?

Surely there is more to being a Scout than rushing around camp at summer camp chasing merit badges?

I don't think that First Class Scout Rank, being accomplished in 12 -18 months should be that much of a stretch for a Lad in a active troop. I do think the adult working with these Lads does need to have the skills to start with. If we go with the NSP, we need to put a Leader who knows his stuff in charge of working with these young Lads.

Just for the heck of it tonight I asked the Life Scout who lives in my house to tie a bowline. He couldn't, I hung my head in shame. 39 nine merit badges, eight years in Scouting, ex-SPL and he can't tie the basic knots. His mapping and compass work isn't that great either. The troop does do an outdoor activity every month. Heck he has the Pioneering merit badge.

Am I really that much or that far out of touch?What do troops do?

Why do we have to teach Scouts attending the Jamboree, who are all First Class and above how to tie a tautline hitch?

I am going to bring a lot of rope to the next R/T, maybe if we do one knot a month there, things will improve.

Eamonn.

[ehcalum]

I'm with you all on this. The bowline is one of the 1st knots a scout should learn. not to mention one of the most usefull. Now I can only tie a onehanded bowline about 3 out of 10 times, but a scout, by the time he is 1st class shoud very well be able to tie the thing blindfolded. You all are right with the just getting the book signed off. While we're at it, I think the most recent edition of the Handbook stinks! Its not nearly as detailed and organized as the old book was when I was a youth.

 

This may be a personal problem but the book and everyone in my council stresses a boy going from tenderfoot to 1st class in a year. If the scout does the minimum time reguirements and joins at eleven, he's looking to make Eagle when hes 13/14 years old. It took me almost 8 years to make Eagle. Anyone see my concern with this.

 

So Troops should hold scoutcraft related games and competitions at troop meetings to foster learning. In the end, you'll always have that paper, but with out the knowledge to back it up, its worthless.

[Fuzzy Bear]

You have made an observation, administered a type of test, and drawn a conclusion. Your reasoning could still be faulty because your sample may be too small or not random enough. I believe what you want to know is if pioneering skills are the standard by which Scouting is known by Scouts and adults. I personally believe your conclusion is correct for several good reasons without further testing.

 

Take it from another point of view. Over the last few decades, Scouting has taken a "leave no trace" philosophy. Building fires with wood has been replaced with how to buy a good backpacking stove. Camp gadgets are more along the lines of buying a good lightweight folding stool or a freestanding tent. Scouts would be embarrassed to have a handmade backpack or a handmade pack frame. They generally only have the best in technology that and Mom and Dad can provide.

 

Cutting down a tree for a project is almost thought of as being sinful. Most Scouters camp but when was the last time anybody here cut down a tree and helped to build a Signal Tower or a Monkey Bridge? If it was done at all, it was most likely for one special event and even then, it was done with trepidation or a kind of fear that we have destroyed our last resource. I am sure that when the boys were involved at any stage that we probably preached about how wrong it is to cut down a tree. We would justify it by saying that it is alright this one time.

 

Even when I was a Scout, building a log cabin was something that I wanted to do but "being conservation minded" overrode my desire. Today, I still think about building a log cabin for my boys to play in but I would still feel very wasteful doing it. I have access to the trees but if I cut one, it is because it is diseased, dead, or about to fall over, so it is taken out only for safety or health purposes. In the early days of Scouting, I would have been considered too conservative minded. Boys and adults did cut down trees and build all kinds of projects and yes, a log cabin was one of them.

 

Scouting has moved away from using the trees in the out of doors for little more than identification, beauty, and something to not camp under in a storm. Trees should be known for their characteristics because they have purpose and make a statement in all of our lives. Trees are a thing of beauty and hold a place of importance for everyone. They take years to grow and can still be one of our best outdoor friends. We should stay away from them in a storm but during the day, they are the best for getting out of the sun and the heat.

 

Which brings us back to how our Assistant Scout Masters are now using the trees. They are using them to do the very things that we preach about. (*That is why they usually are sitting under them talking during Summer Camp.) Outdoor Scouting skills emphasize other aspects of the woods than the once beloved knots. As far as tying a tautline hitch, even that was replaced years ago with those little metal do-dads.

 

The majority of Scouts are learning the things that we think are important. They take their Scouting seriously and usually follow our example. We follow the Scout books and the Scouting philosophy. We ask them to do exactly what the requirements ask of them and no more. We should not be surprised when their knowledge about something that is no longer emphasized is very sketchy. In fact, we should be proud.

 

I doubt I will ever shake the dream of building a log cabin.

 

FB

 

[fotoscout]

I keep going back to this thread with one thought in my mind. Tying a bowline is a basic scout skill. Beginning with Cub Scout Bears, there is a requirement that the boy be able to tie a bowline all the way through the Boy Scout Program.

 

So if they cant tie a bowline, then what have they been doing at all those meetings and camping trips? What kind of Scouting Program have all these boys participated in?

 

I have to believe that most of them (more than half), are the product of a good solid CS and/or BS program. So whats wrong?

 

Perhaps the program has grown beyond itself. Maybe in an effort to remain current, the program has lost focus, or possibly even changed its focus. I know that in the Webelos program there is little time to teach knots, and there is a limited number of times that I can pull out the rope box and expect the boys to be interested before becoming bored with the whole thing. Tying knots, building fires, outdoor cooking all pale in comparisons to the rigorous social and academic requirements of the Webelos program.

 

Sometimes I think that the outdoors portion of the program has become a device for manipulating the boys into staying with the program. Instead of being the device through which the program comes alive.

(This message has been edited by fotoscout)

[anarchist]

Balderdash! Eamonn, you are not a traditionalist...you are a good scout and you are right!

 

Knots are not old school! And should never be allowed to be forgotten! Eamonn, in First Aid and wilderness training the bowline is the primary rescue Knot...Thats why it came up! (it is not the knot of choice for pioneering)...It is a truely life saving tool to have!

And while I wish i could write like Fuzzy Bear (man he's good) but we don't allow 'no little metal things' on our campouts! ...our boys use tautline (or a 'pully knot") on dining flys and tents at every campout and canoe trip!

 

All scouts first class and above should know the basis scout skill knots, period. And while our BoRs can't test... the SM makes sure that no STAR, LIFE or Eagle candidate is presented unless he knows the knots...cold cause he tests in the SM conference cycle. I do not agree that we are adding to the requirements for rank rather we are simply holding the boys to that standard...in and by ... the book!

 

and Fuzzy Bear, Go build your log cabin...find a piece of land about to be paved over (progress don't cha know) and ask the owner for his permission to take a few trees...many will let you thin the place out (we do this for pioneering staves). Farmers can usually be talked into it also...it is then not about conservation in the outdoor LNT sense but conservation of wood that would be used for other purposes! Let me hear you yell TIMBER!

[dsteele]

At our recent Klondike Derby evaluation, a couple of the Senior Patrol Leaders were complaining about the sheepshank being one of the knots required for one of the events.

 

The question was asked, "Who here has ever used a sheepshank?"

 

Of the 50 or so people, my hand was the only one that went up.

 

I was surprised. Maybe rope is less expensive now than it was when I was a Scout. Our Scoutmaster raised us to never cut a rope unless it was absolutely necessary. We used a sheepshank (of varying lengths) to avoid cutting the rope.

 

He also taught us how to get the knot out with a sharp rolling pull. Very cool.

 

I think learning the knots and their uses is one of the best tools Scouting provides. It's one path to learning what's REALLY important . . . the values found in the Scout Oath and Law.

 

Unc.

[Eamonn]

Unc

As you know I am really big on values. The Scout Law and Oath are not something that can be taken lightly.

I know that there are and always will be "Different Courses for Different Horses." I see some troops that camp at our small camp site every month. They don't seem to have any program, they just camp. The kids I see do seem to be having a good time. But looking at their membership something isn't working.

We have the troop that wins the First Aid Meet every year, their leader is a Doctor, they do a lot of First Aid.

Basic Scouting Skills are important to me because I see them as being the key to open the world of adventure that Scouting can offer. I hate to see a Lad hang back from doing stuff because he doesn't have the skills. We in our vision statement talk about Fun and Adventure. I get miffed when I visit troop meetings that are merit badge classes. Worse still is when the badge is given for just attending the class. I see no merit in them what so ever. I know that any normal kid is not having a lot of fun and the adventure factor is about zero.

Some years back there was talk about putting a new building in at camp and filling it with computers. Do we want to send our Scouts away for a week in the summer to sit in a room full of computers? I hope not!! Sure we can send the Scouts who want to do this to some place where they can compute till they fry their brains out maybe a local community college?

To me Scouting is about the methods of Scouting, outdoors is still on the list. Making yourself comfortable and enjoying the great outdoors is what we should be good at, the road to First Class is supposed to make this possible. Once we crack this nut we can really go to town and hold the interest of the Lads. Which gives us more time to work with them on the values of Scouting and have a lot more fun.

Eamonn.

[Proud Eagle]

I must say I agree with a good portion of what has been said here.

 

Back in the summer of 2003 I taught Pioneering to most of the guys in my troop. Most of the time was spent on knot tying. The guys mostly knew how to tie the basic knots, though they weren't fully comfortable with all of them. However, teaching the pioneering knots was a real chore. I enjoyed doing it mostly because it refreshed me on how to tie them. There was one Scout that could watch you tie a knot and be able to do it blindfolded without any practice. The rest took a bit more work.

 

Well, at the end of summer we had just gotten started on lashings, having finished the knots. Unfortunately I had to go back to school and was unable to see them finish. Later that fall I was back home for a troop dinner and on display were many pictures from their then recent Pioneering weekend. They had constructed a huge tower. I was quite impressed. I had my doubts about the guys, but they proved me wrong.

 

Now, if I asked them to build a tower on some weekend, I bet they could do it, but I don't think I would want to check the knots too closely. After all, most of them probably haven't had any reason to tie most of those knots in the last year or so.

 

That is the problem.

 

People don't use the old Scouting skills as much as they once did. You no longer need to know how to tie the tauntline to put up a tent. Instead the lines have those little things or are made of elastic or something like that. It makes setting up a tent much easier and a bit faster.

 

There is no reason to build towers or bridges. We don't encourage cutting trees. We have made safety rules that make using a monkey bridge all but impossible and makes building a huge climbing tower into nothing more than an engineering project. After all, you can't cross a monkey bridge over water and you can't climb a tower over, what is it, 6ft? The adenture in those projects was once in knowing that at the end of it you could climb up and look around, but no more.

 

As for map and compass skills, I would be willing to bet that I could complete a Philmont trek without using a compass. I would need the map, but not the compass. After all, the trails are all clearly marked. There is no busting brush cross country or anything like that.

 

So, it is only natural that basic Scouting skills have begun to fade. After all, if you don't use a muscle for a long time it will weaken. If you don't use some knowledge for a time it will be forgoten. There is a reason that not just many Scouting skills but also much of the lore of Scouting, the stories and songs told around campfires, and yes some of the fun and adventure too, are now passing into memory or into the pages of history books rather than living on.

 

Change has a way of being both good and bad. We want some change to bring new good things in and take out some of the old bad things. However, in the process some of what was good will be lost, and some things that will be bad shall come into being. It is the nature of change.

 

 

[Fuzzy Bear]

Let me jump in and be disagreeable, not that I really care to be but I want to point something out. Outdoors is a method. Knots were one part of being in the out of doors. Knots alone do not constitute being in the outdoors. Knots has been part of a tradition that made for allot of fun in the outdoors and that is what is missing. Everything changes, nothing stays the same. Yet, there is nothing new under the sun until you think about computers, TV, the radio, and cell phones. It is all still little more than communication and that has been around since men began to scratch around in the earth. So if there is nothing new and everything changes, then the equation cancels out. It is the same as it has always been but with a different style or different clothing or different approaches but it still the Outside and boys still love it.

 

I have not been camping in a while but I love to camp. We recently purchased a few acres behind our house. It is wooded and has hills and rocks. I have been clearing deadfall and medium sized rocks for the last few months, a little at a time. I use it to fill the eroded areas with check dams. Whenever I have an hour and before it gets dark, I grab my tools and off I go to the woods. My wife doesn't particularly like it because of my strong desire to rush off and cut and build. What I found in the woods is something that I had lost. It was being in the outdoors. The reason for being in the outdoors wasn't as important as just being there.

 

Since I have a memory of a different time, I remember using knots and building things with rope. It became second nature. I would even build miniature projects with sticks and string to practice and to dream. I know now the reason for all of it and that was just to be outside. There really is plenty of fun and adventure to be had "in them there hills". FB

 

[schleining]

You have to got to be kidding me right????

 

First of all- there was a comment made that Scouting has headed down the same path at schools etc...

Well let me tell you all that if it has than WE as leaders have let it happen and if you are one of those leaders (as Scout is couteous, kind, cheerfull)... ok I have counted to 10.... NOW....

SHAME ON YOU!!

I am a Scoutmaster and there is a great group of Assistant Scoutmasters in my Troop... it is our responsability to teach, coach, train and mentor those young Scouts. Between the ranks of Scout and 1st Class, the Scout works on NOTHING but Scout skills.. that would include: First Aid, Knots, Plants and Animals,Camping skills, cooking skills, planning basics, Hiking, The Patrol method, and an intro to citizenship.

Scoutmasters and Assistant Scoutmasters do not sit on BOR, but if the Scout is not ready, ie: Has not demonstrated the skills for the rank, than the ASMs and I do not sign it off. This is not Cub Scouts where Mom and Dad can sign a book and poof the kid has the AOL.

Leaders need to make the Scouts demonstrate the ability to advance.

I fell out of my chair when someone wrote a Scout appearing for his Eagle board could not say the Scout oath. My goodness.. If I am on that board I am asking who the leaders are and why they do not hold the standards true. PC is NOT part of the Scouting program. Scouts that do not advance, do not advance. We have a Scout that has no desire to advance, BUT he shows up for everything and goes on every campout...thats what he joined Scouts for, at this rate, he will never appear before an Eagle BOR and I will not let him unless he demonstates the ability to join that select group of Scouts.

Those of you that think you have to cater to every sensability have it all wrong. We have an Oath and Law that are simple and cut and dry. That is the program that we need to teach by our example to our Scouts.

Sending a Scout to a BOR after Tenderfoot not knowing basic knots is not being Trustworthy or Loyal to the program.

 

Jerry

Starting Woodbadge Next month and I can not wait!