Wood Badge and its shortcoming

[dan]

A poster wrote

The training I received in WB brought me to a new level in Scouting and I would never have believed that could happen but it did and I will be forever grateful for the experience and the training.

 

Which is a little different than what I got out of Wood Badge. I had a great time at Wood Badge meet many other scouter's and made many friends. The classes where mostly refreshers for me, but very good refreshers, but I have been through most of them in some other form before.

But, I do not see how adult leaders acting as scouts for 6 days give the leadership skills to run a boy lead program. In the course I attended I do not remember the trainers even saying that the participants are acting as scouts to see what the scouts have to deal with in a boy lead program, even if the trainers would have said this I do not see how this would have given them the skills the adults need to run a boy lead program.

The only suggestion I can think of to help this is to have youths be the SPL and ASPL to show scouter's how youth can lead the program. I bet this would raise some eyebows!

 

[EagleInKY]

We actually did have a period where some Venturers came out and led our patrol. I don't know if that's typical or not, but it was effective.

 

Your course instructors must have been different from ours. Our staff was constantly reminding us that we were acting as scouts in a patrol and pointing out challenges along the way. Our patrol was very dysfunctional, so it presented some special learnings for us. They also pointed out things we did that could easily be employed at home in our units.

 

The content of the lectures were pretty boring to me. But I've been in tons of management, teamwork and leadership training. Even so, it was interesting to see it applied to scouting. While I didn't get that much out of that part of it. Some of the people did. Especially those who were more blue collar workers or those that had not been out in the professional field very long.

 

To me, the most powerful part of WB is the ticket. Taking what you have learned, coming up with some real goals, and forcing yourself to follow through with them, is very powerful. Four of my five ticket items are things that I already wanted to do, I just hadn't made time for them. This forces me to do it, which has value in and of itself.

[OldGreyEagle]

Ventures are a part of the curriculum, the way I understand it. My son gets to sing I used to be a staffer now when the WoosBadge song is sung

[Eamonn]

The Wood Badge course is a leadership course open to anyone who has taken the specific training for the position that they hold.

A District Committee member who had taken the District Training Workshop can attend Wood Badge. This Committee person may never ever had any contact with youth members, never ever camped in their life. Will attending Wood Badge give this person the tools he or she needs to do the day to day work that the position requires? No of course not. It will help them do a better job leading the team that they are in and have a better understanding of how a team works.

Wood badge, uses the Troop setting because it works for the course, it isn't there to groom people for specific positions.

In another thread someone said that the Trainers at a Boy Scout Specific training didn't know the answers to questions about Learning for Life or Venturing. Why would they need to know this stuff? Joe Blow was selected to present a Boy Scout training, he may never had any dealings with Venturing or the LFL programs. I freely admit that I don't know squat about Exploring. I have never had any dealings with the program.

The old Wood Badge courses were specific courses. The Cub Scout Leader Trainer, managed at the Regional level, trained Cub Scouter's to be trainers. The Boy Scout course used the 11 leadership skills to teach Boy Scouter's how to use these skills to run a troop. It really did stress the Patrol Method.

I'm not sure why National changed things. I do know that very few Cub Scouter's attended Wood Badge, and a lot of people who serve in non Boy Scout or Cub Scout levels either didn't know which course to attend or just didn't attend any.

The tools that Wood Badge participants come away with are Leadership tools, which apply to leading any group. If you don't know how to tie a square knot at the beginning of the course, the chances are that you still will not be able to tie one at the end of the course.

Sure some of the tools can be used in leading any group. Still when it comes to the methods that each program uses, these are covered in the specific courses and are looked at in Fast Start, and NLE course. Then they are really looked at in depth in each of the specific courses.

Wood Badge course Directors do their best to recruit as diverse as staff as possible. Trying to make sure that every program is covered. I tried to recruit a good mix of male and females as well as a group that had served at every level, Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Venturing as well as people who serve at the administrative level. I wasn't able to find a Varsity Scouter. Our course was a cluster course, recruiting participants and staff from six Councils. When I checked none of the Councils had a Varsity unit. None of the staff knew very much about Varsity Scouting. We ended up just making the literature that was available from National available to the participants. Sad to say when the participants filled out the course evaluation forms they said that they wanted more information about Varsity Scouting. I have to ask why? None of them served in a Varsity unit, in fact there wasn't one in any of the Councils that they came from.

The course is based on a lot of the stuff that Ken Blanchard has wrote. Participants that have taken management training have seen the material offered in some form. These guys are tough to deal with. They have attended a course that in most cases their boss has paid big bucks for. The presenters are professional presenters, the facilities are far better than what most councils can provide. I remember a little while back our company thought it would be a great idea to send us all to see a workshop production of Fish, A remarkable way to boost morale and Improve results. This was was about a four hour presentation. I was surprised when I found out that it cost $328.00 to send each one of us. The going rate for Wood Badge courses in our area seems to be from $180 -$225 and this covers food for six days and a lot of add ons. Most Wood Badge staffers are volunteers and do have a real day job.

I think once people stop thinking of Wood Badge as the things that it isn't and start seeing it for what it is, we will see that it works.

Sure there are things that I hope will be improved and I along with every other person that has directed a course have sent close out reports to the Region, with suggestions. A lot of the items that I sent in came from the evaluations that the participants did.

Eamonn

[Fuzzy Bear]

Dan,

 

That was a quote from me. I took the old course in the last part of the last century (* I can't believe I can say that!). I am an Eagle Scout and thought I knew how Scouting was run but from the perspective of a youth. WB gave me a greater understanding of the program even though I had held almost every Boy Scout leader office as a youth, participated and lead JLT's and I read the books as well. When I entered Scouting as an adult, I figured it was just an extension of what I had been doing in the past but that was not the case. (* I thought I really did know it all, so I was a pain to those that did know.)

 

I did not study to be a manager in school nor did I ever have the interest, so I missed whatever it was that several of you studied but that is not the point. I was taught at WB that there is a Wheel of 11 skills that has balance when used effectively and checked regularly for any task. That principle changed the way I approached Scouts, Scouters and my job in Scouting. It made me into the kind of leader that Scouts and adults responded to and it allowed me to do my job in Scouting much better.

 

A couple of years after WB, I applied for a job as a teacher and was asked to write about how I would approach my duties. I had not studied for that profession, so I wrote about the WB Wheel and education. I got the job and then used the Wheel of skills to become very effective.

 

I could go on and tell you many more stories about how WB and the 11 skills of Leadership helped me but I won't take that chance.

 

I want to tell you a little about the staff. I wrote my Ticket and Jack, my CC, had me trash it and begin again. He took me through it step by step over coffee. He later approved it and I worked it in six months and received my beads. Jack required that I hold myself to a higher standard, so I kept him updated on my progress. I learned from him and we became friends. Each person on the staff was willing to help me or befriend me in any way they could from that day forward. I have called my SM for advice on occasion and he responded the same way as our first meeting. (*He is almost BP or what I think of as the Great One.) I have several other stories how these guys pulled for me when I was down but I won't go there right now.

 

I count my friends in life as blessings. I count the knowledge and experiences in my life as blessings also. WB changed me and I am thankful. I am not open to change my opinion on that issue.

 

I hope the best for you and yours during this joyous season.

 

Merry Christmas,

 

FB

(This message has been edited by Fuzzy Bear)

[dan]

Eamonn

I see what you are saying that Wood Badge uses the patrol method, because it works. Not really what does that mean?

But to turn it around, why bother at all with the patrol method, if Wood Badge is a leadership course for all scouting positions, why bother placing the participants in patrols, having them hike to the outpost cam pout? Seem it would be alot easier to not go to work of setting up patrols, role playing and so on. Or is just for fun?

In Wood Badge we spent less than a day being Cub Scouts, less than a day being Ventures, and the rest of the time being Boy Scouts, seems like the course is slanted toward SM and ASM.

I have been told that by 2006 all of the Ken Blanchard material will be removed from the Wood Badge course, it will be replaced by the material from National Youth Leadership Training.

 

[Fuzzy Bear]

It appears that the training for the 21st Century cannot achieve it's aims and is either in trouble or deeply troubled.

[dan]

Fuzzy Bear

I do not believe the course is in trouble or troubled. As it has been pointed out to me it is not a course to teach the patrol method or how to run a den. Which I now understand. But why use the patrol method, is my question. Seems it sends the wrong message.

To Borrow from Korea Scouter, in another thread, I had a boss that said if you are not changing you are going back wards.

Now, I do not believe that the BSA needs to change it AIMs and Methods, but, for training, there maybe a better way to do it. I thought I had a idea for improvement, but after reading Eamonn comments Wood Badge would be the wrong place for my ideas.

[EagleInKY]

Why use the patrol method? Because it's core to Scouting. BP said that the patrol method was the basis upon which we build scouting.

 

Now, this is where I'll have to duck. Boy Scouting is still the cornerstone of the scouting movement. Cub Scouting is primarily a stepping stone into Boy Scouting. Venturing is an extension of Boy Scouting - an attempt to keep older boys interested and involved. That's why Woodbadge spends most of its time in the Boy Scout model and the program is structured around the troop/patrol setting.

 

Now please don't take me wrong. Cub Scouting is a great program, and, while venturing is still trying to find its legs in many parts of the country, I hope it works out to be what it's meant to be. But Boy Scouting is the core of the program. We can debate the reasons, and I believe their are valid ones, but that's another topic.

 

That's why it makes sense to use the Boy Scout model for WB.

[Eamonn]

Dan,

There really is no longer an "Outpost Hike".In the ideal world the first part of the course should be offered with the participants staying / Sleeping indoors. Most courses offered are now the 2X3 day courses. I have served on the staff of a six day course where we did play "Musical Campsites".

The Course uses the troop setting, but does not use all the methods of Scouting or Cub Scouting or Venturing.

I had nothing to do with the development of the course so I can't say why things were done the way they were. I do think that in trying to please everyone and keep everyone happy, they may have gone a little bit astray.

In all honesty, I think some of the "Scouty Stuff" does take away from trying to teach leadership. The Bridging Ceremony adds nothing and while the Patrol names do promote team spirit and the song is fun, they could easily have been left out. (UK Wood Badge, no longer has patrols.) Still if you are going to split the course participants into teams that are of a workable size and allow every team member the opportunity to lead the team the Boy Scout Patrol does fit the bill.

I have heard that the license agreement with Ken Blanchard does run out at some time. Because of my involvement in Wood Badge, I did read all the books that he has put out. I asked the staff of the course I directed to read them. Some did, some didn't. Of those that did there were a few like me who said that while the books weren't going to be life changing, they did get them thinking, a few of those that read them said they thought it was a load of twaddle.

In order to be allowed to be a course director,I had to attend the Course Directors Conference, our Region offers this in October at Camp Alpine in New Jersey. It was there that they handed out the Course Guide /Syllabus. They had just covered the size of the staff and said that we needed approx 22-28 Staff members, they said that each Staff member would need a copy of the syllabus. When we went to pick up our copies they gave me six!! They said that we weren't allowed to copy them!! When we all (Not just me!!) made a fuss they came up with a list of pages that couldn't be copied. There were in fact only about six pages that we weren't allowed to copy, nearly all to do with Team Development. It seems that the BSA is going to use the Tuckman material, when the present license agreement runs out.

I have not seen the new JLTC material, I have seen some of the stuff that OJ brought home from the OA,NLS (National Leadership Seminar.) He is still working on completing his ticket for this.

I think Wood Badge is good and the course material is good. My big fear or area of concern is that we are going to end up with a big group of people trained in leadership, but lacking the practical skills that people who serve at unit level need.

In another thread it was mentioned that we might be guilty of having too much training. I know trying to get people to give up more time is always a problem. Still I do feel that we send people out into the real world wearing a Trained Patch, when they have more questions than answers. We cover so much is so little time that a lot of the material just doesn't compute.

When the new Boy Scout specific training came out, I read the syllabus and viewed the videos.

I met with the Council Boy Scout Training Chair and we went over all the material again. He then called all the District Guys in to go over it, I attended this meeting. Each and every time I found that I had missed something from the other time. Sure everything is in there, but there is just too much too take in at once. I have attended the Boy Scout Outdoor training's and they are better than what we had, but we are never going to teach all the skills in a weekend. We promise our Boy Scouts fun and adventure. We need leaders that can teach the PLC skills that are needed for them to follow / plan programs that are fun, adventurous and challenge our youth members. A weekend course where we cover all the skills needed for First Class is a good idea and sure a person with a Scouting background can sail through it, but a person who wasn't a Scout and never had the opportunity to use these skills, will have a hard time. I still think that Scoutcraft is what we should be good at and if we don't have leaders who can pass on their knowledge the program suffers. We have started offering Scout Skills training at Summer camp. While the Scouts are busy doing what they are doing we ask an experienced Scouter who is skilled at something to invite other Scouter's to come and learn from him. So far it is working well, we have found that many of the guys who already have the skills are coming and taking on the teaching role. Of course we have the "Show Offs" who want to impress the unskilled guys. The unskilled guys need to learn the basics and the show off wants to skip this and show how great he is!!

I really hate to see Scouts hang back from doing fun stuff because there isn't anyone in their troop who has the skills that they need to learn.

Eamonn.

[evmori]

I took the old Wood Badge and we were placed in patrols. We were to function just like the Scouts in our Troops functioned. What a great experience! We needed to make decisions based on our limited knowledge of each other. What a great idea! Scout leaders learning how patrols function by functioning as a patrol! The BSA should have kept this concept & not combined the Boy Scout & Cub Scout courses.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

A blessed New Year to all!

[Eamonn]

Ed, they didn't just combine the courses they changed them completely.

This is where people think that there is a shortfall. The old Cub Scout Leader Trainer Course equipped those who participated to be a Cub Scout Trainer. It really didn't have much to do with being a Cubmaster or a Den Leader. The old Boy Scout Wood Badge, gave the participants the skills they needed to operate a troop using the Patrol Method.

The new course is not about the program it is about leadership.

Eamonn

[evmori]

Eamonn,

Thanks for clearing that up. It sounds like the "one size fits all" Wood Badge isn't working like National planned. Maybe they should go back & revamp the Cub course instead of futzing with the successful Boy Scout course.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

A blessed New Year to all!

[EagleInKY]

Ed - I don't know that I've heard that it wasn't working. Certainly, there are some that don't like it. But some just don't like change.

 

I think the course works pretty well as is. I could make a few suggestions, but they are mainly centered around strengthening the patrol aspect of the program. I don't think it's worth having a seperate Cub Woodbadge. These were not very well attended, since most Cub Leaders are just "passing through" to Boy Scouting. It's a huge personal investment to take woodbadge. Taking it twice is an even bigger investment. SWMBO and other spouses probably would not like it.

 

I see two issues with the program as it is today. One, I think too many scouters are coming in with very little experience. We had leaders in our Woodbadge course that had only been in a few months. They had very little experience to pull from. Most of these were Cub scout leaders whose pack pays for the course. I would much rather them come after being involved for a couple of years.

 

The second issue I had was the focus on lectures during the first phase. I would much rather them spend time putting us in situations as a patrol, and then analyze the results. I think you learn much more by your experience (and failures).

 

Just my 2 cents worth. Overall, I wouldn't condemn the course over the issues I've raised. I would suggest further tweaking to improve it over time.

[fotoscout]

WB is an "experience" as much as it is a training class. To an extent it immerses you in the culture of Scouting but not the practice of Scouting. It doesnt pretend to offer all the answers to all the questions, and most certainly it is not the end-all crash course in Scouting.

 

As I talk to people and read the responses here I am quickly coming to the conclusion that what people want is a more Scoutlike experience from WB. More experience and less training. The concept of learning and using advanced management skills within the framework of a pack, troop, or crew, seems to be too much for many people. Or perhaps as followers rather than leaders they simply dont see any use for that type of training.

 

In any event, I thought WB had very few shortcomings. As time passes, the only shortcoming that stays with me evolves around all the time spent writing tickets.