In days of old when Knights were bold...

[Eamonn]

I know it might be wrong but there are some things that I am happy to not know everything about. I am happy to allow myself to follow the masses and not find out the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Some years back we held a religious retreat at Jamonville. The guest speaker was a George Washington historian. He was there to explain what a great man George was and how in his writings he wrote about God. The guy was good, he really knew his stuff. He wasn't good with kids. His first question was to everyone asking them what they knew about George Washington? One little Cub Scout stuck his hand in the air and explained about George and the cherry tree. The Historian spent the next five minutes explaining how it wasn't true.

I like the tale about George and the cherry tree. I like to think that Richard the Lion Heart was a good guy and Prince John was the bad guy. I don't care if Robin Hood and his merry men are not real. I like the idea of the guy going around taking from the rich and giving to the poor. King Arther and the knights of the round table are good people in my book.

So it is with Baden Powell. I like the idea that he was a good person, a national hero in England and the founder of Scouting. Sure I have read about "The Boy" and I have read that he might have taken a lot of ideas from other clever and gifted people. Still as a kid and as a Scout in England we were led to believe that Baden Powell was to Scouting what George Washington is to America. If George is the Father of the USA, Baden is the Father of Scouting.

The early days of Scouting are not well documented, mainly because in the very early days Scouting in the UK was not very well organized.

(I have to go to an Eagle Scout Court of Honor but will be back.)

Eamonn.

[LovetoCamp]

George Washington DID cut down that cherry tree and when asked by his father he said, "I can not tell a lie."

 

Christopher Columbus was a Great explorer and sailor and discovered America in 1492.

 

Abe Lincoln split rails and rassled and was born in a three walled cabin in the winter!!!

 

Robert E. Lee was a great honorable general of the Southerners.

 

Baden-Powell was a Great man who founded this Great movement.

 

There's no need to buy into or believe some revisionist malcontent with a warped ulterior motive, on any of our great legends or history. It's my life, I will believe what I believe until I believe otherwise.

 

The Cherry Tree story is just the ticket for a Tiger Club Den Leader Closing!!!

 

Thanks Eamonn!!!!

[scoutldr]

My mind is made up! Don't try to confuse me with facts!

[Eamonn]

As I was saying....

In fact it can be said that there were some groups formed before Brown Sea Island.

Due to needing money and under the watchful eye of his mother BP wrote a lot of books. He did need to live a life style that was in keeping with his brother officers in the army so the income from the books helped out. He also used the books as a way to be noticed by his superior officers. The dedications of his early books were to senior officers who might be gratified to be publicly acknowledged and who would remember his name in the future.

Aids To Scouting was published in 1899. Later retitled Aids to Scouting for NCOs and Men. There are records of a letter that BP received in 1900, that states "My two cousins and I have formed a B.P.S.S., that means Baden Powell Scouting Society.."

This was 1900 and the book was written at least seven years before Scouting For Boys. Many young people were using the book as some sort of a manual.

In 1904 BP was invited to be the Inspecting Officer at Annual Inspection and Drill of The Boys Brigade. William Smith the founder of the Boys Brigade was keen to work with BP and broaden the scope of activities that the Boys Brigade offered, he challenged BP to come up with such a program. Baden Powell was a honorary vice-president of the Boys Brigade until his death. The Boys Brigade did for a time have their own versions of Patrols and did for a while have a Scout uniform and offer a First Class and Second class badge.

BP never thought of Scouting as being an Organization he always felt that it could fit very well into other existing organizations. I think this is one reason why he choose to call it a Movement.

In November 1906 BP visited the YMCA at Birkenhead, where he outlined his idea for"Peace Scouts".

The Church Lads' Brigade founded in my part of London - Fulham in 1891.

In 1900 when Aids to Scouting was published the Church Lads' Brigade used it as their manual. Church Lads' Scout Patrols were started in 1908 and wore the Scout uniform when it was changed in 1913, in 1915 Scout Patrols were discontinued in the Church Lads' Brigade . However there was still Church Lads' Brigade troops until 1936 when the came up with their own program which was still very similar to Boy Scouts.

These early relationships were very important to the development of Scouting in the early days.

Many see the Brownsea Island camp as the start of Scouting as we know it. BP insisted in a letter to the editor of the Daily Mirror (One of the big UK newspapers.) that the camp was a little experiment. With all the talk we have had in this forum about socioeconomic factors,it is interesting to note that BP charged the "Town boys" three shillings and sixpence (28 cents) and the Public School Lads one pound ($1.60) In England Public Schools are the private schools.

The Boys were split into patrols: The Wolves Patrol, The Bulls Patrol,The Curlews Patrol and The Ravens Patrol. (Back in a bit)

Eamonn

[Eamonn]

Scouting For Boys, the book was published by Horace Cox a printer owned by Pearson's on January 15th 1908 priced at four pence (1.25 cents)With the subsequent parts appearing every other Wednesday. Person's was owned by Sir Arthur Pearson, who at that time had control of popular end of newspaper and magazine printing. He owned the Daily Express and the Evening Standard. The Literary Editor for Pearson's was Percy Everett, who went on to write The First Ten Years.

Scouting For Boys, did include ideas from Ernest Thompson Seton, an Englishman who had emigrated to Canada. He had already published The Birch Bark Roll and formed a youth organization in 1902 called the Woodcraft Indians. He had visited England in 1904 to lecture about his organization and returned in 1904 and had four trial camps. Seton went on to become the first Chief Scout of The Boy Scouts Of America. At a dinner in 1910 he introduced Baden Powell as "The Father of Scouting" Baden Powell replied that Seton had made a slight error"There were many Fathers and that he (BP) was "Only one of many uncles." Later Seton claimed that he was the true founder of Scouting. BP, did acknowledge borrowing Seton's work and in the original Scouting For Boys, edition one he recommended that boys read Seton's works. In fact while at Brownsea Island he gave one of the boys as a prize or a gift a copy of Seton's book Two Little Savages.

While the Book Scouting For Boys did make Scouting very popular with boys in England, and many did form their own Patrols and in some cases Troops and it is true that many of these were "Boy Led".

There were many boys who were Scouts in other organizations.

Organized Leader Training's date back to 1909, when Mr.Archibald Kyle was appointed by the Committee of The Council Chief Scoutmaster, he created the Scoutmaster Training Corps'.

In 1911 Scoutmaster Training Camps were organized in London and in Yorkshire these were a series of lectures in the evenings which were followed by a weekend camp.

In 1914 there was a series of articles in the Headquarters Gazette. Each article covered a different aspect of Leadership. Questions were set and like a postal course. A board of examiners were set to assess the candidates. Study Patrols were set up and weekend camps were arranged.

The grand opening of Gilwell Park, took place on July 26 1919. The first Wood Badge course was held September 8th - 19th.

The rest is history.

Looking over the old books and the history of Scouting it becomes very clear that Baden Powell really did expect Scouting and Scout Patrols to be part of other organizations, he never thought that this Movement would ever become as big as it did and never grow as fast as it did.

When it came down to getting things done. It is worth remembering that in the very early days he was on half pay and he asked people who he trusted to get the job done. While in the early days BP was not keen on rule books and that sort of thing he thought that the Leaders would be like free agents working "In communication and not bondage". He did see the need for training and firm leadership. He also saw the need for Quality Leadership. It did take a little while to get everything sorted out in part because the first world war got in the way.

As I was looking up some of this I found an article about a man from a coal mining town who wanted to take his Scouts to camp. They didn't have the money, so he borrowed an organ grinder, he then went from town to town grinding the organ and collecting donations. This after working his shift in the coal mine.

I like this guy. If ever there was a Knight in shinning armor to a bunch of kids it was him.

Eamonn.

[Eagle1973]

When I was a Den Leader (forget what rank at the time), we were invited to do the opening flag ceremony at an American Indian Heritage night at a local school.

 

This was great, a sign off for conduct a flag ceremony, a sign off for learning about the American Indian in our area, and have some fun too. What could be better.

 

Well, the American Indians (in cheesy costume with a US flag with an Indian's head printed on it) had all the youth sit a semi-circle around them. Then they preceeded to rail on the kids for being decendants of the evil white man that lied and cheated and stole and killed and......

 

After about 60 seconds of this, I went to the principal of the school and ask if she was going to stop this or was I, and if I did, it wouldn't have been pretty.

 

Fortunately, the game night was fun for the Scouts.

 

Oh well, just wanted to vent, about 3 years after the fact.(This message has been edited by Eagle1973)

[LovetoCamp]

Exactly. Instead of little Sioux kids playing kick ball with the little white kids, you have grown ups just blasting away at these little kids with their hate. My kids are 6. They aren't now and never were in the 7th Cavalry in the 1880's. My kids, nor I, nor any of their ancestors owned slaves. Actually my kids ancestors slaved away building the Illinois & Michigan Canal for minimal wages and faced discrimination for their being Irish. I want some reperations!!! No bucks, no peace!!!

 

So when the hippy dippy malcontents and their allies in Hollyweird want to call Christopher Columbus a genocidal maniac, I'm not buying in. When George Washington is denigrated, I'm not agreeing with it and I'm not going to "go along".

 

Revisionist malcontents are doing the same hatchet job on Baden-Powell and W.D. Boyce, their agenda is certainly not the search for knowledge. What is their ulterior motive? Comments?

 

I think tonight, we'll make some Cub Scout popcorn and watch John Wayne in "The Sands of Iow Jima". We love John Wayne.

 

 

[Eagle1973]

I think tonight, my wife and I will attend our Troop's Court of Honor, where my son will "pin on" Tenderfoot and will watch when the other Scouts receive their awards earned throughout the summer.

 

Life is good!

[BadenP]

Eamonn, a very good history of British Scouting, thanks , but can you tell me what the focus of this thread is? Who is out to destroy Scouting?

[Eamonn]

I had hoped to show that from the very early days in Scouting that:

Training was being offered.

That while many people like the idea that Scouts and Scouting took off all by it self. With boys forming units without any adult aid, this is only partly true. Scouts were around in various forms with adult leadership before there was even Scouts!!

In another thread it seemed to me that Quality Trained Leadership was being brought into question. While I don't pretend to know very much about the spread of Scouting in the USA. When I look at the UK and how quickly BP saw the need for Leader Training, I think the idea of American Scouting not seeing the mistakes that had happened across the pond is not very lightly. While, as I say I am not that well read about the early days of Scouting over here,what I have read about James E. West leads me to believe that the BSA under his leadership was far better organized that English Scouting was under BP. James E. West was far better equipped to lead a youth organization because of his training with the YMCA. Baden Powell was a military officer. It strikes me that BP would be a great volunteer leader and James E. West, would have been the Scout Executive.

Forgive me but I don't understand the question about destroying Scouting.

Eamonn

[LovetoCamp]

My post might have slightly strayed from your line of thought Eamonn......

 

just a ti ti bit!!!

[Miki101]

Greetings Pounder,

 

I am curious...what specific "revisionists" do you refer and what do they say about BP and Boyce that's gettin' your dander up? Could it be that they have re-examined the information and have simply come up with other conclusions?

 

miki