Boy Scout Training Isn't Strong Enough?

[Eamonn]

It was stated in another thread that the Boy Scout Training isn't strong enough to get the methods of Scouting across.

I have presented The Method's Of Scouting at Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmaster Specific Training.

The methods are all there I listed them on flip chart. We went over them one by one in an open discussion. I gave everyone a handout with them listed and an explanation of how to make them work or why they are important.

I suppose we could have the participants write them out a couple of hundred times or maybe have them commit them all to memory. But I don't think that would go over very well.

What more do you want?

Eamonn

[Fat Old Guy]

Flip charts aren't really training, are they?

 

When I went through Scoutmaster training, we learned most, if not all, of the methods by doing.

 

We were broken into patrols and most knew no one in their patrol. We had to get to know each other and elect a patrol leader and have patrol meetings. We had patrol cheers, neckerchiefs, and flags.

 

We went outdoors spent three days in the sunshine and rain.

 

We may not have had rank advancement but we worked to earn ribbons for our flag.

 

We learned to work together and to use each other's strengths and so we grew as people.

 

We learned to lead and to allow others to lead.

 

We may have all been adults but we had role models in the training staff.

 

Lastly, we were all uniformed.

 

We were all there because we wanted to provide the ideal Scouting program.

 

That's how I learned the methods.

[Bob White]

The problem is not the training. I have taken, and taught on numerous occasions, every version of Scoutmaster training since the mid 1970s, And it has barely changed in its content. It has always been about 7 hours of classroom followed by a weekend outdoor course to learn skills and operate as a patrol. It was like that 30 years ago, it is still that same training platform today.

 

30-years ago there were scout leaders who "got it" and ones who didn't and many in between. That is still the same today. Not everyone is cut out to be a mechanic, or a carpenter, or a doctor, or a teacher, or a scout leader. The difference is that other vocations have a weeding out system that removes most of the incompetent members early on in their career. Scouting does not. As a volunteer it is easy to linger on regardless of how bad you are.

 

Charter organizations and key unit volunteers, for the most part do not take the task of 'selecting' leaders seriously. They are willing to let anyone be their child's role model if it means less work for them to deal with.

 

To often the cry goes out "we need somebody to be the scoutmaster". They get what they ask for some body. What they should be looking for is Somebody Special.

 

If you attend training, read the Boy Scout Handbook and the Scoutmaster Handbook, have access to supplementary training like Roundtable, and you still can't figure out what scouting is all about, it's time to quit blaming scouting and accept the fact that being a scout leader probably isn't your calling.

[Eamonn]

Part two of what the Cantankerous Elderly Obese Gent (Due to too much dairy product?) refers to as Scoutmaster Training is the Introduction To Outdoor Leader Skills. The training is very similar to the training he describes.

The use of the Flip Chart or Power Point is used because some of the methods of Scouting can not be passed on by example or by role playing and do need to be listed, taken home looked at, worked on and used. I'm thinking of:

Scouting Ideals.

Personal Growth.

Adult Association.

Leadership Development.

Sure the other Methods can be practiced at the Outdoor Training.

Uniform.

Outdoors.

Patrols.

Uniform.

Advancement.

All of these are still covered in the Training's.

The new Wood Badge course, while not just a Boy Scout course still uses a troop setting, with a SPL. PLC, Patrol meetings and the second part of Wood Badge still has the participants camping as patrols. The course has three Troop meetings that demonstrate how a troop meeting should be conducted. As Bob White says things haven't changed very much. In fact the Boy Scout training is about the same as the training that I did when I took my first Wood Badge at Gilwell Park in the early 70's.

I think to say that the Training offered isn't strong enough is unfair. I see leaders both new and old some who have taken the latest training's and others who went through training a long time ago still not delivering the program.

During my term as a District Commissioner, I sent the Commissioner Staff out to try and help and advise leaders in how to go about delivering the program. Some leaders welcomed the help and advise, some thought that they knew all there was to know and while their heart may have been in the right place and they were / are working with Lads of Scout age what they are offering is not the Scout program. It wasn't that they didn't know the program they just opted not to use it.

Eamonn

[OldGreyEagle]

Maybe the issue isn't that the training isn't strong enough, but that the training should be required of all involved. If everyone in a troop was trained, there would be less of a chance of someone saying, I went to training and they said doing skills testing during a scoutmaster conference was ok. If only one person has gone, then no one knows to challenge that statement. If everyone has gone, then this is less likely to occur. Everyone would remember different parts of the sessions and the troop would be much better off. I think Boy Scout Training is fine, it just needs to be required of all registered leaders

[Eagle1973]

I just went thru New Leader Essentials and Scoutmaster and Assistants Specific. What an incredible waste of time. I'll try to complete Intro Outdoor Leadership Skills, only because I promised the SM that I would become "fully trained". (The Youth Protection training is very good.)

 

At least our council is trying to setup the mentor method for the Outdoor skills. That will make it easier because I'll be able to become certified on one of our normal campouts.

 

I guess if you have never been involved in Scouting, the training is useful. There needs to be a way to be able to validate the training.

[OldGreyEagle]

Validation of Training? What a concept! At least its worth considering. Actually, you know how you have to renew Safety Afloat, Safe Swim Defense, Climb On Safely, Youth Protection and anything else I forgot, maybe every 2-3 years a scouter should have to attend a "review of the program". The Aims and Methods at the very least would be dicussed. This wouldn't replace the initial training, but serve as refresher courses. Its a thought.

 

As far as vlidation of the initial training session goes. A pre and post test would be great

[EagleInKY]

I just went thru New Leader Essentials and Scoutmaster and Assistants Specific. What an incredible waste of time.

 

I cannot put my finger on the problem, but I've seen this too. In fact, the reputation of the training is so bad, it's impossible to get people to go to it. I'm trying to get our new ASMs and Committee members to get trained, and it's like pulling teeth. I don't know if making it mandatory is the answer, but it would at least keep me from being the bad guy that keeps hounding them.

[Eamonn]

Eagle 1973 could you please explain why you found the training was such a waste of time.

Eamonn

[Fat Old Guy]

"It has always been about 7 hours of classroom followed by a weekend outdoor course to learn skills and operate as a patrol"

 

Interesting. I went through about 20 hours of class room followed by a Saturday and a full weekend course. We also operated as a patrol for the entire two months.

 

Eagle73 said, "I guess if you have never been involved in Scouting, the training is useful. There needs to be a way to be able to validate the training."

 

When I went through training about 1/3 of the class (49 participants) were Eagle Scouts, including two members of my patrol. None expressed any dissatifaction with the material (I later served on training staff and was privvy to the course evaluations). We have a couple new ASMs who are Eagles and went through the new course and both have stated that it was a waste of time. Interesting, very interesting.

 

Eamonn defended the BSA with, "The use of the Flip Chart or Power Point is used . . . " The flip chart or its modern analog are used because you don't have people who know how to teach. Staring at a screen for four hours and listening to a monotone speaker READ the screen to you isn't training. It's boredom.

 

I will agree with OGE that testing should be part of the training to make sure that the attendees get what they were supposed to get.

 

In their instructor training material, the NRA says something to the effect that learning is the change in knowledge, skills and attitude. Knowledge and skills are the easy part to teach. The attitude is the difficult part. If a Scouter lacks the attitude to implement the program the way that it is written, all of the classroom sessions in the world won't help.

 

Anyway, flip charts aren't training. Training is doing in a controlled environment.

 

BTW, I've been told that the Federal Government now discourages the use of the term "Flip Chart" because "Flip" is a pejorative term for Philipenos (sp?).

 

[Eagledad]

Hi All

 

>>The methods are all there I listed them on flip chart. We went over them one by one in an open discussion. I gave everyone a handout with them listed and an explanation of how to make them work or why they are important.

[Bob White]

The biggest hurdle to successful training, and successful unit operation for that matter, is not the content of the training syllabus or the resources of scouting. The problem resides in the heart and heads of some trainers and participants. And unfortunately those two things are not BSA issue. They come with the individual. Some come fully functional and some do not.

 

Mandatory attendance is not the answer. Selecting the right people for the right job is the only solution. The goal of training is not to see how many you can get to attend. The goal is to teach them the information. There is no difference between 5 people going to a training course and understanding the information, and 50 people forced to go and only 5 learning from it. If only the people who want to do a good job take training we will get the same program results as if every volunteer took it. The only difference is we will save a lot of money handouts.

 

lastly, people who do not like, do not know, or do not use, the scouting program certainly should not be entrusted to teach it.

[Eagle1973]

"Mandatory" is not the way to go. Our council attempted that by saying if you aren't trained within two years, you must give up your position. That went over like a lead balloon. I'm a volunteer, don't tell me that I have to something.

 

In order not to sound too negative, I'll start with what was good about my recent training experience.

 

1). It was free.

2). I got to meet some very good council volunteers and fellow SM/ASMs from my district.

3). It will add to our troops total number trained. Scouts love patches....

4). It was conducted in 3 three hour sessions at night vice in one big firehose on a Saturday.

 

What was bad:

1). The instructors read from scripts, read from flip charts, played video clips.

2). The information presented was straight from publications that we could read for ourselves.

3). The instructors were volunteers teaching fellow volunteers on how to make the lives of paid Scouters easier.

4). Not one paid Scouter showed up during my 4 sessions of the two courses I attended.

5). The information presented on how to work with/teach Scouts was all common sense, especially if you were a Scout, and if you have held leadership/instructor positions in the past.

6). When a question of canoeing policy came up, and the instructor gave an incomplete answer, I attempted to give the fellow ASM more info and I was told by the instructor that it would be covered in outdoor skills. But his troop was going canoeing in two months, and the next skills course was still unscheduled.

 

Maybe I'm an anomaly. Maybe I had a fantastic Scouting experience that taught me how to be a leader. But the other Eagle that was at my table was as bored, as flabbergasted as I was.

 

Since I'm new here, I'll give you a short background. Joined Scouting in 1969, Eagle in 1973, Silver palm, OA Brotherhood (nominated for Vigil, but learned of nom too late), US Naval Academy Grad, varsity letterman (team captain), retired US Naval Officer. Covey trained, TQM/TQL trained, corporate leadership training, etc, etc......

[dan]

This discussion is not going the way I thought it would.

Let me try and summarize this thread to this point.

Some people think that the training is good, some people think it is bad. Some people think that no matter what the training is some people will never get "it". Some people think its the CO fault. Some people think that training should be mandatory. Some people think a follow up test, to see what the trainee, got out of the course would be good.

 

The training has not changed much in 30 years?! 1974

I thought the training was rewritten within the last 4 years, apparently the only thing that changed was to split SM Fundamentals into 2 courses.

 

I still say that the training needs to be more forceful and tell the trainees how a troop will be ran and not just suggest at it and role play the boys roles. Lets at least give the ones not following the Program at chance to see the errors and correct them. Give me good information in a quick and easy to understand way. I had a great time a Wood Badge, I got more out of the presentations than I did as a adult, role playing as a scout.

 

Eagle73

The training has to be geared to the lowest common denominator. Or only people who understand boy lead will get anything out of the training.

 

 

[Fat Old Guy]

EagleDad said, " Proof of that is comparing older leadership handbooks to todays leadership handbooks. Im talking older than 30 years ago."

 

Danger, danger Will Robinson! Reference to old handbook will bring about castigation from a pompous bookthumper who will remain unnamed.

 

Bob White said, "The biggest hurdle to successful training, and successful unit operation for that matter, is not the content of the training syllabus or the resources of scouting. "

 

Alas, if the training syllabus and training materials bite the big one, then the biggest heart isn't going to do a bit of good.