What is trained?

[Laurie]

OGE asks: "ASM1 and Laurie, may we agree that one can be trained, although not be WoodBadge trained? Whether its New Leader Essentials, Scoutmaster Specific, or COmmitee Challenge, etc. you can be trained but not WoodBasge trained and while I agree that WoodBadge training is the most desirable, the other training is adequate to communicate the program to those who will run it?"

 

To which ASM1 replies in part: "It was never my intention to suggest you are untrained because you have not attended Wood Badge. But if you think you are trained without attending Wood Badge you are very mistaken indeed."

 

To which I reply:

 

OGE, well said, and I agree.

 

ASM1, that's a contradiction: you say you did not intend to suggest that I was untrained without Wood Badge but follow up with stating that I am mistaken in thinking that one could be trained without attending Wood Badge.

 

Not only am I not hostile toward Wood Badge, I highly recommend it. I recommend that untrained leaders (those with no training) become trained. In fact, I'm such an advocate of BSA training that one year ago no leaders in the pack were trained with the exception of the CM. He moved on when his son bridged, which would have left no trained leaders. I sought out--and I do mean sought out--training, for it was not easy to find a training course that was not cancelled due to lack of attendance. Last night I presented the charter paperwork and Quality Unit ribbon to the pack leadership, and we reviewed the year. All leaders are now trained. Why? I personally encouraged each to go, set the example by going first myself, and we continue to attend training courses as they are held.

 

Now, this brings me to the part of that other conversation (parts of it quoted above) that bothers me. If anyone were to tell these leaders they were not trained, though they are fully trained for the positions they hold plus have assorted other trainings IN LESS THAN A YEAR, they would be hurt and discouraged. They made a commitment to serving the boys, and to do that, they went to training. They are proud of the training--I am too--and rightfully so.

 

We have seen results in this unit by taking the basic training needed for the positions held. Results that have been noticed by other units, have been acknowledged at Roundtables, have been held up as an example throughout the district, and have caught the attention of the council as well. With a council of 100,000 that's no small accomplishment. Was it our goal to get noticed? No. Our goal was to learn to provide the best possible program to the boys we serve. Apparently we've done that.

 

Next for many is Wood Badge. Not all will go, and of those who want to, not all may go now. It requires two weekends away from home. I won't speak for others, but I'll give my reason for not going this year. I have children ages 2 through 12 who are my top priority, but I have encouraged my husband to go this year. We cannot both go at the same time, and I'm not wild about leaving my little one right now. If this makes me a less committed leader, than I think that's a very sad commentary on how training is viewed by some.

 

All training matters. It makes serving the units easier. It eliminates--or at least helps to eliminate--the personal agendas one might have by bringing each leader's attention to the methods, aims, and purpose of the BSA. It leads to results--happier boys and families, and therefore recruiting gets easier. It leads to happier leaders as the stress is lessened and the goals and how-tos are made clearer.

 

I will promote and encourage Wood Badge, but along the way I will continue to encourage every leader I meet to become trained (starting whereever he may need to), and I will continue to applaud the commitment shown when training has been taken. To do anything less seems rather less than Scout-like to me.

 

Discussion anyone? What have you seen in your units in respect to the various trainings and the benefits from them?

(This message has been edited by Laurie)

[LPC_Thumper]

Interesting points...

 

I'm a District Training, and I'd like to comment on what has already been posted. It is only my opinion. Anyways here goes.

 

I always thought that the idea was to get trained to provide the best program for the youth we serve. I mean I've only read they manuals, and stuff, and I just thought the goal was to provide the best program we could for our youth was the point. I didn't realize that getting beads was REALLY the goal. Silly me...

 

As for putting other youths needs in front of our children, and thus showing the world that we are committed to a program, I'm of the opinion that our family comes first. I do trainings in our district on a monthly basis. When my son was in the program, I was helping with campouts on a monthly basis. After he graduated (something about being 18 and rather spending weekends with the fairer ones rather than with 12 year olds) I started helping in the district. Again, I guess I should have been more concerned with others, but I figured I would spend my time helping the kid I loved.

 

I really do think the goal here is simple, it's the goal National suggests... Get as trained as you can. Does that mean you aren't trained if you don't take advanced training? I don't think so. Can I be a good Cub Committee Member and not know about BALOO? You bet!! Can I work with young men in Boy Scouts, and not know HAT? Sure!! Can I influence young ladies in Venturing and not have beads? I believe I can.

 

Does that mean Woodbadge isn't worth it? Hey I'm a District Training Chair... all courses have their purpose. Just don't get so upset over stuff that doesn't really matter.

[SR540Beaver]

The BSA considers you "trained" and able to wear a "Trained" patch when you have completed Youth Protection, New Leader Essentials and Leader Specific Training. For Boys Scouts, part of the Leader Specific is the Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills course. That is the bottom line of training according to BSA. All other training provided is desirable and more icing on the cake. Wood Badge is preferred, but not required to be considered trained by BSA standards. Having said that, let me encourage everyone to go to WB as soon as the are able to make the commitment. You will be glad you did.

[Fat Old Guy]

"It was never my intention to suggest you are untrained because you have not attended Wood Badge. But if you think you are trained without attending Wood Badge you are very mistaken indeed."

 

Not being a Democrat, I haven't conducted a study and I don't have reams of statistics to back me up, I just know what I've observed in my tiny corner of the world.

 

We have an ASM (an Eagle Scout) who went through the current Scout Leader training and, within six months, was off to MS Woodbadge 2001. I have yet to be impressed by his level of training and knowlege. To him, the most important things are keeping everything neat and orderly. Patrol spirit? Not important. Songs? Nope. Campfire? Only if it is orderly. Boy run means that he makes the plans and the boys execute them, if they remain orderly. Learning through failure is not an option

 

We have another ASM (not an Eagle) who also attended MS Woodbadge 2001 and he is much the same way. Line the boys up and "run them through" activities. "On this hike we will accomplish . . ." As above, failure is not an option and these guys will make sure that no makes a mistake.

 

With both of these guys, fun is secondary on any Scouting outing.

 

As I said, a very small sample set but so far I'm not impressed.

 

 

[Bob White]

As the Training Coordinator for this District my goal is 100% trained leaders. That means every leader attends the courses needed to attain the "Trained" leader level and have the prerequisites to attend Wood Badge (which by the way does not include Youth Protection, that is a supplementary training course). I do not see how more trained adults can do anything but provide a better scouting program for youth.

 

I agree that every leader needs training and having taught all the basic courses now I see a big difference between Tiger, Cub, and Webelos training, as well as a major difference between Committee and Cubmaster. I am split on the issue of mandatory training. Although I want 100% of registered adults to get training I do not see it as being within the council's authority to mandate. I would like to see more Charter Organizations take that on since it is their unit, and their leaders, and their responsibility. I do not see any council having the luxury to enforce this rule. Their jobs depend on program growth. I believe saying that they will not recharter a unit is a hollow threat that will never be enforced.

 

As I have posted before, I asked a national BSA director about this method and he said that 'national did not support or encourage councils to do this, but that councils have a degree of autonomy on this'. So perhaps national is withholding judgment until they see how this is received in the field.

[BrentAllen]

I'll present a true case in support of training - I'd even say mandatory training, though I am sensitive to Bob's comments.

We had two Wolf Dens start this school year with 10 boys each. Both Dens had a DL and an ADL. In Den A, both leaders attended and completed training. In Den B, neither leader attended any training. At our last Pack meeting (skit night, always popular), Den A had 9 of 10 boys present. Den B had 2 boys present, and at last report, only had 5 of the 10 still active at all. There are other factors involved here, but a lot of them could also be traced back to training. If not mandatory, then it should be very strongly encouraged.

[Eamonn]

I kind of expect you to get a lot of different ideas and opinions.

I like to think that nearly all the people that get involved in Scouting share the same values that I do. Maybe not in the same order as I do, but if we were to make a list the same values would pop up.

These values are those that are in the ideals of the BSA. Each person who decides to come on board makes the decision as to what their commitment will be. When I look at how many people are involved I am amazed. We have those that work in the units delivering the program to the youth.Some of these are attending meetings week in and week out. We have people that serve on unit committees who might only meet once a month and serve in a once a year activity. Pinewood Derby or Blue and Gold at the pack level. Or drive the mini bus to camp. Add to this the District Committee, the Commissioner Staff and those unsung hero's the Community people who raise money for the FOS.

That is a very large number of people and we have only looked at the District.

Our goal is to serve the youth in the programs and bring more youth into our programs. The program can be found in the publications of the BSA.

The BSA offers all sorts of training's. Depending on what role the person has chosen to serve in. For people serving at the unit level there is: Fast Start, New Leader Essentials and the Specific training or training's for the position that they are serving in.There are other training's for Committee people and District people and Commissioners.

However at the unit level once you have completed the specific training or training's you get to wear a Trained Patch.

That Trained Patch should tie in with the position Patch. You need to be have taken the training for the position that you hold. I have never served as a Troop Committee Chair, so if I were to start I would have to take that training before I should wear the Trained Patch.

Training never ends,just as we never stop learning. There are BSA and non BSA courses and publications that we can take which would help us better serve the youth.

There is also Wood Badge. Wood Badge is a Leadership Course. It will give you tools to be a better leader. It is for all the adults in the BSA. There has been some dialog in these forums about how it doesn't do enough to put over the patrol method. Who ever said it was right. It is not a Boy Scout Course, it doesn't show how to run a district meeting or a den meeting. - If you want that you need to attend that training. We don't have any Varsity Scouts in our Council. If I were to start one tomorrow Wood Badge or no Wood Badge, I still know next to nothing about running a Varsity Team. I would be able to use the tools that I got from Wood Badge to help me lead the Varsity Team.

In my experience I have found that dealing with Trained Leaders is a lot easier then dealing with those who have not taken any training.

Training helps leaders acquire the knowledge and develop the skills and attitude to make their contribution to Scouting worthwhile.They tend to provide better programs for the youth in part because they know where to look for resources. This also means that the youth stay in the program longer.

I really don't know when people should take Wood Badge. It depends on what is going on in your life at the time.

In our district we have a Scouting family. Mom, Dad and two sons are all in Scouting. Dad is self employed. He owns a business that sells headstones. At weekends when the weather is good he visits grave yards and does lettering. Adding names to the headstones. Mom went to Wood Badge last year. He is taking the troop to summer camp this year and sending both boys to the Jamboree. He tells me that there just isn't the money to take two week ends away from work and pay out all that money. I know that he will get to Wood Badge, I just don't know when.

Eamonn

[Laurie]

Jumping back into this discussion

 

Guess what arrived today? My husband got his Wood Badge invitation! He didn't tell me had sent an application in, but we agreed that it's better for him to go now as it's harder for me to leave the kids. I'm so excited for him. He was torn about going, not sure if he should go or not, but well I can arm twist rather well, you know. Now I feel just a little jealous because, like I said, I'd love to go. The timing isn't right though. As to money--good point that I overlooked. We don't have it, plain and simple. How we'll do this is yet to be determined. However, because it matters to both of us, because we want to do what we feel is best able to help each of us serve in our units, we'll find a way to work it out. Just like with summer camp, uniforms, and all the other costs related to Scouting.

 

One of our sons came home with a cut knee in need of stitches, so my husband still doesn't know he got his invitation as he ran him to the hospital so I could stay home and handle homework battles and the little one trying to snag the homework away! He should like receiving this news when he arrives home

 

[SR540Beaver]

FOG,

 

It was said by someone else in another thread, but it bears repeating here. Send an idiot to training and you get a trained idiot. I've been to what you call MS WoodBadge 2001 in a derogatory manner. What you see these two men doing in their unit is nothing that was taught to them at WB. Try as I might, I can't find anything in the course material about keeping things neat and orderly or telling the boys what they are going to do. You are dealing with individual personalities, not the training they received and are not using.

 

Perhaps they picked up their attitude of doing it their way from an example of someone else in their unit who likes to criticize BSA policies and methods. Ya think?

[KoreaScouter]

FOG's characterization of the two leaders in his unit employs two types of logical fallacies in one example.

 

The first is simply error in the argument, which is illustrated when you break it down. "These two guys went to WB. They are bad. Therefore, WB is bad".

 

The second is in confusing correlation with causation. The fact that two events are somehow linked in time or space does not mean that one causes the other. "I watched American Idol. It began to rain. Therefore, American Idol causes rain."

 

SR540's right, garbage in, garbage out. I've always found it amusing that people who will, by and large, seek out opportunities to get better at what they do, resist opportunities to do so when it comes to Scouting.

 

KS

[Fat Old Guy]

The large toothed fellow said, "Perhaps they picked up their attitude of doing it their way from an example of someone else in their unit who likes to criticize BSA policies and methods. Ya think?"

 

Nah, not likely. One was around long before me and I've had little reason to interact with the other.

 

Korea guy said, "FOG's characterization of the two leaders in his unit employs two types of logical fallacies in one example."

 

Nice try but it won't work. I said that my sample set is small. I just haven't seen anything good come out of the program. For those who say, "go try it!" Why should I invest time and money for something that I'm not convinced will do any good? If your argument is that I can't make a decision without experienceing it, that's silly. We make decisions about many things based on observations.

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

When I was attended the 2001 National Jamboree one of the attractions that really impressed me was the OA's "Scoutopia" exhibit. It really was impressive, if any of you were there, you know what I mean.

 

During the performace, and I hate to call it that but my vocabulary lacks the ability to more adequately describe, several vignettes were presented with follow up discussions afterward.

 

One vignette had a traveler walking down a road and call to a farmer in a field and asks the farmer what type of people lived in the area as the traveler was thinking of moving. The farmer asked what the people were like where the the traveler lived now and the traveler responded that they were vain, ignorant, unprincipled and surly (or thereabouts, its been awhile you know). The farmer replied the traveler would most likely find the people in the area the same way.

 

Then they "replayed" the scene with a different traveler who asked the same question of the farmer who replied with the same question, but the second traveler had a diffeernt answer, this time the traveler responded that the people where he lived were polite, intelligient and courteous who were a joy to be with. The farmer then had the same answer, You will most likely find the people here to be the same.

 

If you look at the world expecting to find junk, junk you will find, if you look for beauty, beauty you will find. If you don't have expectations and judge each event or person on their own merits, then you will find both junk and beauty. (Course you could argue whats beauty to one is junk to another, but what we look for clearly effects our observations)(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[Fat Old Guy]

So OGE, if I drop an anvil on my foot and expect pleasure, I'll enjoy it but if I'm expecting pain, it will hurt?

[Eamonn]

Laurie,

I hope that the little fellow with the cut knee is on the mend and will soon be back kicking a soccer ball around the yard.

I also hope that the big fellow with the Wood Badge invite gets to go.

Like my pal who can't make the course just yet, I feel sure that both of you will get there one day.

Eamonn

[Laurie]

Eamonn, thanks on all counts! Only 4 days of no sports remains, and it was glue instead of stitches--easy fix for him, kind of cool too. WB is now a cost issue, but we find ways to make things work.

 

Question for all about WB: does your unit usually pay for it? The letter of invitation states that units should pay the way as this training will benefit the unit. We know that won't happen as funds tend to be tight for the unit. It did lead me to wonder though if this is a common practice.