Webelos Participating in Scout Camporees and Klondikes

[WoodBadgeEagle]

I am a former Cubmaster, and am now a Scoutmaster (for the past 5 years).

 

Our Troop has always invited 2nd year Webelos from a couple of neighboring Packs to come to and participate in Fall Camporees and winter Klondikes with the Boy Scouts. We did not usually have them stay overnight, but they went around and did the events. Sometimes we mixed them in Patrols with older Scouts (the older Scouts really enjoyed this), and sometimes they went around as their own Patrol- it depended on how many Webelos went to the event. We have had a separate set of awards for Webelos dens who compete, but the events have been the same ones that the Boy Scouts participated in.

 

I just got an e-mail from someone in our Council that says we must not do this. She quoted from the "Cub Scout Outdoor Program Guidelines for 2002" as follows:

 

"Webelos Scout dens are encouraged to visit Boy Scout district camporees and Klondike derbies. The purpose of these visits should be for the boys to look ahead with anticipation to their future as Boy Scouts and observe troops they might join. Webelos Scout dens should not compete against or partipate in activites designed for Boy Scouts. Webelos Scout dens should not spend the night as particpants at the event if the program is Boy-Scout based."

 

My opinion was that asking a 10-year old to come and OBSERVE and not PLAY was about as exciting as asking them to visit an art museum (sorry to all the art museum fans out there).

 

I will of course follow the rules, but does anyone know where this came from, and if it is in keeping with the way things have been done or supposed to be done in the past?

 

I am a bit discouraged by this, and I don't see us having a separate set of events JUST for Webelos, but anything is possible.

 

Thoughts? Thanks!

 

WBE

 

[Bob White]

That program rule has been in effect since 2001. Webelos may attend but there must be a separate program for them to participate in. The reason is two-fold. First Webelos are not trained to compete at a Boy Scout skill level so there participation within a patrol or against a patrol is hardly fair or fun in the majority of cases.

Secondly, if the event's skill levels are lowered to accommodate the Webelos then it lowers the enjoyment of the event for the Boy Scout.

 

So the solution is to run the event with two skill levels. One for the Webelos, and one for the Boy Scouts. The Webelos are also asked required) to camp separately.

 

Bob White

 

[sctmom]

This is NOT new. (caught you again BobWhite...just kidding with you).

 

The 1997 Cub Scout Leader Book says "Webelos overnight camping at Boy Scout camporees and/or events is not an approved activity."

 

 

The part of this that I still don't understand is statements such as "Webelos Scouts should not experience Boy Scout-type camping on the overnights." What is "Boy Scout-type camping"? The 1997 Cub Leader Book even goes so far as to say " If you use a council camp, be sure the Webelos campsite is away from regular Boy Scout camping areas." Huh? I thought very few councils had CubWorlds and what difference does it make?

 

Back to the original post. As a Webelos leader I did not take my boys on these type camporees when offered in our district. They are not prepared to do Boy Scout skills. That is NOT part of Webelos. The Guide to Safe Scouting also stresses that Webelos should camp with troops when the Webelos are the focus of the troop. The troop isn't going to be focusing on the Webelos at a camporee.

 

[yaworski]

"The part of this that I still don't understand is statements such as "Webelos Scouts should not experience Boy Scout-type camping on the overnights." What is 'Boy Scout-type camping'? The 1997 Cub Leader Book even goes so far as to say 'If you use a council camp, be sure the Webelos campsite is away from regular Boy Scout camping areas.'"

 

Boy Scout camping is supposed to be patrol camping without adults watching their every move.

 

I'd think that it would be a good thing to have the Webelos near the Boy Scouts so when they realize that "those guys over there don't have their parents with them" they have something to look forward to for the next year.

 

 

[sctmom]

Yaworski, I agree. At least the new book doesn't say the Cub should not use the "Boy Scout AREA". Like sleeping in a Boy Scout tent requires special skills that a 10 year old does not possess.

 

Our council puts on a Webelos Camporee each spring. The boys got to learn a few skills and then be timed for the competition. These included knot tying, stretcher relay, compass course, string burning, and isotope (all but 1 is blindfolded and you remove the toxic bucket). There were 3 adults and 3 boys. We all had a great time! The Boy Scouts were working at many of the stations. They made sure the boys understood the skill before timing them. The adults had to go on the compass course, but we made the boys do the work. Also, an adult had to light the fire at the string burning. It was just enough to whet their appetite for Boy Scouting and lots of fun.

 

[yaworski]

We have a District "Webeos-o-ree." Similar events except that our guys were allowed to light the fire themselves.

 

I do remember that the Eagle Scout teaching the knots couldn't tie a tautline hitch to save his life so he had to find someone else.

 

Evidently some parents think that sleeping in a rudimentary tent is too rough for a Webelos. One fellow pulled up in his Chevy Subdivision and started unloading gear for about an hour or so it seemed. He had a brand new, three room tent, cots, air mattresses, and, get this, tiki torches. Two years later, we're still talking about him at meetings.

 

The kid whose dad had the tiki torches went to Webelos summer camp with us but dropped out of Boy Scouts because "we didn't do anything fun." He skipped Boy Scout camp, came to two meetings and missed all the camping excursions. No wonder he thought we don't have any fun.

 

 

 

 

[ASM1]

If you want recruitment, get the Webelos II's to attend Boy Scout weekend campouts. Have them stay the whole weekend. They will have fun and want to join your troop. BUT, make sure you invite their parents too.

 

Bob White is freaking out right now, he has to look past that stop sign at the end of his street. He hates that.... LOL!

 

ASM1

[Bob White]

Carrying a chip on your shoulder ASM1? I'm not the only poster who saw no emergency in Chicago but I'm the only one you seem to like to take swings at.

 

"Boy Scout Camping" is backpacking, long hikes, minimal shelter or natural shelter in inclement weather, winter camping in tents, cat hole latrines etc.. There is a big difference in how a 9-10 year old views the world and how a 10-11 year old and older sees it. What is adventure to an older boy is a frightening experience to a younger boy. What is a physical exercise to an older scout is painful torture to a younger one.

 

The programs of the BSA are designed to meet the changing needs of youth at specific ages and stages of their lives. To give a Boy Scouting experience to a Cub aged boy is as bad as giving a Cub level program to Boy Scout aged boys.

 

A good leader delivers the appropriate program at its fullest to an appropriate age group.

 

Bob White

 

[sctmom]

ASM1,

Webelos SHOULD camp with the troop. But that is with THE troop not ALL the troops at one time. Parents for the Webelos are REQUIRED even when camping with the troop. At a camporee, the Boy Scouts are focused on their competition, meeting other troops, etc. They don't have the time to spend teaching the Webelos what they do. Look at the Webelos program, it does not teach the skills necessary for competition in a Boy Scout camporee.

 

So, there are safety issues and the issue of the Webelos being discouraged because they are not ready for the competition.

 

 

Bob White, I thought that is what Boy Scout camping was, just most around here do car-camping. The only difference around here between Cubs & Boys is the Boy Scouts cook for themselves and sleep in their own tents.

 

 

[evmori]

I feel Webelos should camp with Boy Scout Troops. This gives them exposure to the program & give the Troop exposure to their new members. Not participating in camporees is more of a safety issue.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[eagle90]

Our troop is leaving later today for a weekend campout. We have 8 Webeloes and 8 parents joining us. We do have plans for our scouts to teach the Outdoorsman badge and have some other Webeloes specific activities planned for them. We do get them involved in meal preparation and cleanup with the patrols. They love being involved and doing something.

[sctmom]

No one said Webelos should not camp with troops, they should just not do so at camporees. One den with one troop is what should happen.

 

[Bob White]

And I apologize that I did not cover that. The restriction does not extend to individual troop activities where the Webelos are the center of the activity. They are still not to backback or do the other higher skill activities but can participate and camp with the troop.

Bob

[WoodBadgeEagle]

Okay, back to my original question, which was about participation in Camporee events. The letter of the "law" states that "Webelos Scout dens should not compete against or partipate in activites designed for Boy Scouts.".

 

I want to have ONE set of events that all Scouts and Webelos participate in (Lord knows with all the lawyers in America, I hesitate to have any "dangerous" events), but with separate scoring for the Webelos, and separate sets of awards.

 

The rule does not seem to allow this.

 

Perhaps it's a matter of interpretation? It wouldn't be the first time.

 

Thanks!

 

[sctmom]

I agree that I don't think it is allowed IF the competition is about Scout Skills not covered in the Webelos program.

 

Knot tying is a Webelos activity. Simple first aid is a Webelos activity.

 

Most Webelos will not know how to follow a complicated compass course. They haven't learned wilderness survival. They haven't learned how to start a fire with no matches. They have not learned the skills that lead to First Class.