Wood Badge lost its wood and Baden Powell

[combsc]

Participating in Wood Badge in 1988 was one of the best experiences of my life. Wood Badge then was for the leaders of scouts teaching the ideas of Baden Powell the founder of scout leader training.

 

I have worked with about five Wood Badge courses with the last one being the first locally offered Wood Badge for the 21st Century. Please do not get me wrong - the new course is still a great scouting leadership course but it is more directed at scout leaders such as district and council leadership and not leaders that are actively working with the boys. Baden Powell's teachings have taken a distant back seat to the management consultants who developed the new course and put themselves up on the pedistal. I was also particularly impressed with being forced to pay an intelectual property fee to serve on staff to effectively even make the management consultants more money.

 

Since they have removed much of the Baden Powell influence and most of the out doors training, they should have also dropped the Wood Badge Beads and the Name Wood Badge. In my very unimportant personal opinion, they should have changed the name to Advanced Scouting Leadership Training and used the Wood Badge for the 21st Century pentigon logo for the official course emblem.

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

I received my Wood Badge beads this past Wednesday, (Dec 3, 2003) having taken the Wood badge course for the 21 rst Century

 

I would like to point out this gentlemans' opinion is not rare amoung those who did Wood Badge the "right" way. I can only imagine in years to come when other Wood Bagders ask when I took Wood Badge, which is really a veiling of the quesiton was it the new crummy way or the old right way and how I will react.

 

Thank you combsc for reminding me no matter how long or hard I work in scouting I will never be as good as you because you did it right and I didnt

[Bob White]

An interesting opinion combsc, I am curious as to what parts of the leadership training you felt were not in line with B-Ps philosophy or techniques. Please share some examples with us.

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[combsc]

Sorry guys, I did not intend to offend anyone or diminish what can be gained by anyone taking Wood Badge for the 21st Century. I strongly recommend the new course for any serious scouter.

 

Much of the same leadership skills are presented in both courses but in the older course they were not presented as management development skills like they are in the new course. The older courses had few if any references to management consultants (even thought they may have very likely originated from them) and had many more references to the other current scout and scout leadership handbooks that were standard BSA issue. The new course is loaded with references to the management consultants. The constant bombardment with the pentagon logo leaves a strong flavor of a professional management develpment course.

 

As far as the outdoor leadership skills - national has restructured the training by adding the outdoor skills training as a separate course that now is usually taken in conjunction the the Basic Leader Training. This makes this type of training more available to the leaders working with the boys without making the larger committment for taking Wood Badge. Moving the outdoor skills out of Wood Badge has also reduced the committment needed for the shorter Wood Badge for the 21st Century and this will also make Wood Badge available to many more people who were unable to make the kind of committment the longer course required.

 

Over all I would have to say that I would agree with what national did because it basically has enabled more scout leaders to participate in the training that they need for their scouting jobs and that is definitely better than it was.

 

Bottom line is that I still liked the old course better. If for no other reason because it was more traditional than modern. Either way, anyone that has seriously participated in any Wood Badge course (old or new) has gained much from it and that has helped improve the program for the boys and that is the whole reason for the training in the first place.

 

[Adrianvs]

I have some questions regarding the Wood Badge program. The Wood Badge itself, the name, and the Gilwell traditions seem to be shared by all the scout movements internationally. To what extent is this program (old or new) a national one and how might it differ from programs in other nations? If the national programs are different, what is the thread that ties them together. I have never taken the Wood Badge program, but I am familiar with Lord Baden-Powell's writings, history, and original scouting program.

[dan]

A also have a few questions and of course comments.

 

I had this same discussion last Monday night with an "old" Wood Badger, he took the old course and was QM for the new course this year. He was saying how the old course was so much better. I asked him what was the difference between the courses, he stated that the "old" Wood Badge was more like JLTC (which we both staffed) There was not much difference between JLTC and the New Wood Badge, except the course where more directed at youth versus adults. We meet in dining flies just like they did in JLTC. When the troop meet for Wood Badge we either meet in a barn or in a huge dining fly, at JLTC when the troop meet it was in a dining fly. So what the difference.

The issue of time also came up in this thread. The New Wood Badge is a 6 day course either done over two weekends or a week long, was the "Old" Wood Badge longer?

I guess the issue about the corporate logos and pentagon logos did not bother me, since I really do not remember them.

 

I have had most of the training that I got in Wood Badge through my work, but the Wood Badge course was a lot more fun.

And it was a good refresher for me.

 

[Bob White]

Wood Badge programs vary widely throughout the world. Even in the BSA Wood Badge has gone through many revisions. In fact the Wood Badge course I took in 1980 was much different than the Wood Badge course taken by scouters in 1988 (hmmm does that make my version better because it was older or does its age make it "more traditional" than the 19988 version?

 

And the course in the 70's was different than what I took in 1980 Perhaps that was the most traditional one if you don't take into consideration the ones before that or Baden Powell's course which was unlike any of the BSA courses.

 

Then of course there was Cub Leader Wood Badge which was based on training and training administration and not anything like boy Scout Wood Badge.

 

As combsc points out there are many positive things about Wood Badge for 21st Century one which I will ad is the explaination and use of situational management which harkens back to B-P's leadership philosophy that no two scouts are alike and require the leader to adjust to each individual and not try to lead everyone the same way.

 

By the way management was a very strong theme in 1980 when I took the course. The trap I think combsc fell into is that his frame of reference only goes back as far as his own personal experience and he needs to realize that WB existed in other variations long befi=ore he ever cam to know it. "Traditional" by his standards is a more modern way to some and the old way to others.

 

Perhaps a more Big Picture view needs to be adopted to fully appreciate the features of the current course. (Which by the way will be known as the traditional course by todays scouters when WB takes on it's next variation years from now.)

 

Bob White

 

Bob White

[combsc]

I totally agree with Bob White. Wood Badge changes every year using feedback from every course's course director in an effort to keep improving the course. Like the old saying "The only thing constant is change itself".

 

It would neat to see any movies that possibly captured any of the early Wood Badge courses with Baden Powell himself.

 

I drove over 1500 miles (total) in six successive weekends to attend Wood Badge and loved every minute of it.

 

I hope I don't dissapoint you Bob White but I was a Bob White also.

 

Serving on staff of the Wood Badge courses requires at least three times the amount of time and effort as taking the course and usually about double the out of pocket cost of a participant.

 

[Fat Old Guy]

I'm particularly interested in this "intellectual property fee" that you had to pay. More details please?

[NeilLup]

I am reluctant to post credentials because I believe that a post should speak for itself not because of the person posting. However, maybe a few credentials here would help.

 

I took Wood Badge in 1970 in what was then Region 12, now Western Region in what was then the Scoutmaster's Course.

 

I staffed in 1971 in what was the first Leadership Development Course in Region 12. Staffed again in 1972, 1973, 1978, 1986, 1992, 1997, 2001, advisor in 2003 and am scheduled to be advisor in 2004. I directed in 1973 and 2001. This represents 2 Regions, 4 states and 9 councils. I have had the honor of being faculty on the WB Course Director's Development Conference of the Northeast Region several times and was, for a period of time, on the National WB Task Force. I mention this just to illustrate that I do have some personal knowledge of what WB was and how the changes have occurred.

 

It is very interesting to me that some of the exact same complaints about 21st Century WB are the ones that were made about Leadership Development WB when it was first introduced. In fact, back then, the complaints were much louder and the words "This is still a pretty good course" were not heard. Now, it is considered the "old" course and the "right" course and the "gold standard."

 

I won't get into some of the detailed reasons why WB was changed in the way that it was unless you wish. To summarize, evaluations suggested that participation in old WB did not particularly correlate with running an outstanding Troop. Plus putting on the old WB required a LOT of time and effort on the part of the staff so that in many councils there were WB cliques who did nothing but run WB. Plus, the management styles and philosophy of the old course was considered obsolete and not to fit the needs, characteristics and expectations of today's parents and young adults. Groups of people do change. The styles of Tom Brokaw's "Greatest Generation" are different from the Baby Boomers and they are different from Gen X/Y.

 

There clearly is less emphasis on outdoor skills. It would be difficult to have a course for ALL leaders (Boy Scout, Cub Scout, Venturer, District and Council) that had as much outdoor skills as LD Wood Badge because the level of skills to be taught is so different in each group. Perhaps for Boy Scout leaders, that is a substantial deficiency that needs to be remedied with some other training. That is being discussed. If so, it likely won't be Wood Badge.

 

Undoubtedly, WB will change again and other trainings will be developed. That's why it's important to let your council and National know what you think is needed.

 

The intellectual property fee goes to the Blanchard organization to pay for license to use the Team Leadership Model, Team Development Model etc. plus a fee to the producers for showing the movie "October Sky."

 

There was a lesson learned there. When the new JLT comes out nationally, scheduled for summer of 2005, the material will be BSA developed and, I believe, there will be no intellectual property fee. At least, that is the plan now although it could change.

 

Wood Badge is run in essentially every country in the WOSM. We had a staff member on our last course (great guy) who had taken WB in the mid '80s in Norway. He was a teacher on one year exchange to the Boston school system from Norway and still an active Norwegian Scouter. He wore his blue Norwegian uniform througout the course. He said that the population of Norway is about the same as that of the greater Boston area (4.5 million) and there is one woman who runs Wood Badge for Norway and one staff. We were pleased to send him home with his third bead.

 

Some countries are big enough to develop their own course. Others use courses developed by larger countries. But each country decides what WB is for them and how it will be done. As an example, we understand that England recently eliminated 3 and 4 bead Wood Badges. Everybody wears two beads. But there is no world wide Wood Badge superstructure to my knowledge.

[combsc]

The Wood Badge for the 21st Century course that I assisted with was over a year ago. National required that each person serving on staff and each participant must pay an "intelectual property fee". I was under the impression that the fee went back to the management consultants that developed the course and national took this approach so that they would not have to pay up front for the development of the course. This appeared to me to be like they were charging me (a staff member) to use their material so that I could make them more money buy charging the same fee to course participants. If I remember correctly, the staff voted on if we wanted to roll the staff's intellectual property fee in the the participant course cost. I along with every other staff member voted to pay our own fee so that we could keep the cost down to the participants.

 

Another real annoying situation was that the staff guide sections for the presentations that were developed by the management consultants could not be copied and only the originals purchased from national could contain that material. I was particularly impressed when I was assigned a presentation to give and found out that the staff guide I was given did not have that section because it was a donated copy that was made by another staffer to save money. Maybe my irritation was caused because our council did not want to spend the money to pay for official copies of the course guides.

 

If I remember correctly, national responded to my complaint explaining that they may drop the intelectual property fee in the future. That just told me that I was one of the lucky folks that got to pay for the course so that the chiefs at national could get their bonus for cutting costs.

 

Please don't think that I shared this in any way with the participants of the course. I did the best that I could to assure that they were provided with the best training they ever received. My opinions about this stuff was never shared with the course participants.

 

[dsteele]

The intellectual property fee of $15.00 per person is paid to the national council, who in turn pays royalties to the various management consultants and movie companies from which material is used. Those companies don't care whether the viewer is staff, participant or some guy walking by. I don't like it any more than anyone else does, and it was told to me that the thought of royalty payment didn't enter into the BSA mind until it was too late to change the newly developed syllabus.

 

The staff syllabus, as I was told at the Course Director's Conference, can not be purchased by councils. One copy per Course Director's Conference was given to each council -- not to each participant -- to each council. They can not be copied. IF they are copied, the council or the person who made the copies, if caught, could be forced to pay the same fines a person who illegally makes copies of a copyrighted movie and gets caught pays.

 

I don't know if anyone here knows what the fines are for copyright infringement. I don't. I know they are steep and I certainly can't imagine what it could cost local councils or the BSA to pay for every course that breaks the law in putting on this pinacle training.

 

We may not like the rules, but there are reasons behind them.

 

DS

[Fat Old Guy]

Sounds like BSA didn't have the sharpest pencils when negotiating this deal.

[Bob White]

combsc,

 

The development team consisted of Banchard group, 50 scout volunteer contributing authors and members the national Boy Scout training committee under the pro advisor John Alline who was at the time the director of Boy Scout Leadership Training at national.

 

The money goes to Blanchard and for movie rights only. To know if this money was spent wisely one needs to attend the course, or talk to those who have. I feel it is spent very well.

 

Bob White

 

PS, Glad to hear you are a Bobwhite.

[KoreaScouter]

I chalk it up to the "we had it tough" syndrome, in which anybody who did something after you did had to have an inferior experience, simply because their experience followed yours. There's probably a more complicated name for this human dynamic, but I don't know what it is. What I do know, is that it's absolutely universal. My school was tougher than my kids', my football training camp was worse than yours, the first deployments to base X were worse than those that came after.

 

Why do we do this? I don't know, but if you think about it, you see it all the time.

 

KS