What Is The Cost Of The Course, In Your Area ?

[jbroganjr]

Bob White

the resources that I was asking/looking for where: the sources upon which the modules where based. Additional material that may be helpful. I was told by my conselour that the staff had access to this stuff, but attendees where not allowed to have it. Big Secret

 

As to be invited to Woodbadge... don't worry, it is a take all comers proposition, with no tenure requirements, except NLE.

We had a fellow (Tiger leader) who had just joined (Scouter for 2 months) who only took NLE and signed up for woodbadge so that he wouldn't have to ever take any other training.

I do believe that their should be atenure clause (2 yrs) so that at least a scouter brings experience to the course.

I fully support the idea that 1/3 staff must turnover and once a SM, that's it. Our course though is being run by a cabal all from the same district and i believe the same unit, all big shot volunteers at the council, so a wait and see approach is warranted on my part

Now we had folks take woodbadge from our troop at a another council's course, and these folks raved about it. (both courses ran at the same time, so a lot of note taking was being done) and the comparisons where shocking, so I do not trash woodbadge as a whole, just my course.

What has woodbadge taught me...that most people say one thing and do another, that there is a lot of do as I say, not as I do, that people take scouting way too seriously and forgot that it is to be fun. I took the course as a commissioner and the course has, to the benefit of the youth in the troop, pushed me away from all that to the troop, where I work with the PLC, providing the structure so that these young man can excel at running their program. It has taught me to go have fun and the heck with everything else, very hedonistic on my part, but ultimately we are there for the youth, not knots and big shot commissioner roles, district roles. this is how I find something positive out of a lousy situation. The end SM speech of Woodbadge, the "BIG" secret of leadership is "the golden rule", thankfully that is the way I was raised and try to live everyday. It was too bad that the course did not feel that way when it came to treatmentof the attendees.

[dsteele]

I just looked through the syllabus to see if it listed sources for the material in the session. I didn't find any. However, page A-61 of the syllabus (it's in the appendix, so it can be copied,) lists resources, most of which were used to develop the sessions.

 

You should be able to get a copy of that page.

 

Hope it helps.

 

DS

[Eamonn]

Everyone attending Wood Badge is to have completed the Training for the position that they hold. New Leader Essentials,does not in any program area constitute, complete training. The Tiger Den Leader, would need to do the specific training, before attending Wood Badge.

Tenure requirements, to my mind are ok, but I have seen people that are very intense and want to get all the training that they can as fast as they can. In my own district, we have a Unit Commissioner, who many years back was involved in Scouting, for reasons that are only known to him, he was "out" for over twenty years, then came back and within the year was taking the old Wood Badge course. He had the tenure, but a few things had changed a lot, while he was away. In fact even today, he spends a lot of his time telling me that things and boys are not what they were. When he isn't telling me, he is telling the Scouts that he meets. Needless to say the Scouts don't like him and sad to say . Make fun of him.

We also have a Membership Chair. who has never had any contact with Scouting, she is a superintendent of a school district. Doing a great job for our Scout district, she has done the New Leader Essentials, and District Training, never set foot on a Scout/Cubscout camp, but is signed up for the course. Her contribution to Scouting and our district is significant. Maybe with time she would learn her way around, a little better, but is doing a good job now.

Tenure is going to do little to improve her performance. To my mind, we have given her the tools that she needs already, Wood Badge will add to these.

One of the "Big" things that I want to do as a District Chair. Is not to ask unit people to do stuff that takes them away from the unit. In order to do this, we have to bring more and more people who may not be "Scout People" on board. They will enhance our program, and depending what position they hold have no need for tenure to get the job done.

So maybe the Course Activities are not challenging enough for the Scoutmaster, who can tie knots with one hand, and is faster then a speeding Tenderfoot.Or the Den Leader who can do wondrous crafts with old editions of the Readers Digest and trains others in the outdoor skills of Cubscouting. But I would love to see the day, when we have just as many people doing things to support the program as we do people delivering it.

[dsteele]

Amen to Eamonn.

 

Enjoy the slant rhyme, my friend. I minored in Literature in college.

 

DS

[Bob White]

The more I read of Eamonn's post the more I respect him.

 

I think the one of the biggest fallacies is that with tenure comes skill. I have seen many a volunteer (and pro for that matter) that never get any better than their second or third year (some just do their first year over and over and over again.

 

The best leaders, in scouting or in the private sector are those that know their industry, know their job, know their strengths and weaknesses, know their end user. Leadership is a living thing, and like any living thing you either grow or you die.

 

I'm very sorry that jbroganjr didn't get what he wanted out of the Wood Badge course he attended. It appears his training staff did not understand or chose not to follow the program.

 

By the way Wood Badge is not based on One-Minute Manager. It had as its core writer the author of One-Minute Manager, Ken Blanchard. The course segment on styles of leadership is based on Blanchard's philosophy of situational management. But other segments of course were developed by a 50-person team of scouting volunteers from across the country.

 

Bob White

[dsteele]

I should get tired of saying "Bob's right," but I won't because he's right. Bob, coming from a lefty, that's a high compliment.

 

I once reported to a Senior District Executive, multiple person (that title is the precurser to District Director) who, according to him, had seven years of experience.

 

When I mentioned his seven years of experience to the finance direcor, he said, "You've had four years of experience. He's had one year of experience seven times!"

 

As a boss, that guy drove me nuts . . .

 

DS

[fotoscout]

Bob,

 

If you start with a Tiger Cub and stay with the program as he becomes a Sr. Webelos , its virtually impossible to do the same program over and over again. Cub Scout leaders have no choice but to ...... or get out of the way. As Im sure you know, in Boy Scouts its different. Some Troops require that the SM job turns over after ?? number of years, some troops dont. But ASMs can stay on forever. Sure, that can make them a little stale, but many of them develop great expertise (and experience), in whatever it is that they do for the troop. And when needed those ASMs often step up to plate to do wonderful things. Tenure and experience are mutually exclusive, one does not necessarily affect the other.

[dsteele]

Tenure and experience are mutually exclusive, but one doesn't necessarily effect the other.

 

I think that's what we're all saying. I have no problem with tenure as long as people stay fresh and learn and do new things. One of the things they teach us at professional development is "If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got." It isn't true, by the way because the law of diminishing returns comes into play.

 

I served the same district for 8 consecutive years. We made quality each of those eight years, but only because the volunteers shifted positions.

 

Sticking around isn't, in and of iteslf, a problem. Repeating over and over again the previous year, is.

 

Keep it fresh and succeed. Developing expertise is a good thing . . . not being open to new ideas isn't.

 

DS

[jbroganjr]

Okay, very valid point on tenure

and if the purpose of woodbadge is to present the broad spectrum of scouting to non scouters, then it should not be sold as the Premier scout training session

That said, one problem I have as a middle age scouter (been around, but not as long as a lot of people ;-} is that most training is geared towards newbies ('cept powederhorn training, which I personally believe you should know something about working with kids as well as the skills presented) and that it would better serve the "experienced" scouters, especially the 1 year repeated over and overs, to have an elevated training session. I am not suggesting a super skills weekend, but a broad spectrum of scouting ideals and resources

In no particular order

1. Dealing with youth according to age levels (Too many folks in this world of ours do not follow a program of boy run troops and there is too much tendancy in the cub program to be only adult run, so a balance should be presente)

2. Role of the adult, summed up, not specific training, but lets reiterate jobs and functions. Specifically geared to the volunteers that work directly with youth

3. Skills - Ideally, the phrase that cubscouters do not know how to camp should not appear nor be an issue. Cubbies would welcome working with BoyScouters to learn the ropes (See a SM as a guide, Cubbies as tenderfoot)

4. To present the ideal of scouting competition (No its not about winning, its about personal competition to better oneself)

5. Where to go, project planning, etc.

6. Advancement - a measurement and byproduct of an effective program, not the "reason" we are here. (If a truly effective program is in place, I personally believe we will see not only more rank advancement, but greater retention of youth members)

7. Marketing and Image - It is up to scouters to not only put their best foot forward, but to get the message out how great this program is.

8. Leadership Follow Up - not presentation of new material, but application of theory and ideals to real world problems, a sharing of solutions and ideas

Man, this is starting to resemble my RT program....

[Eagledad]

Hi All

 

I'm a little lost on what National wants of WB. When I ask, I get different answers. I did not think the old Boy Scout Wood Badge contributed much to helping adults run a troop. I had fun and took away a few new ideas from the old course but I went in with several years of Troop experience and was only looking to build on my experiece. It was not a mountain top experience, but an addition of training. I feel Wood Badge was design for those with some experience to bring perspective to their WB experience.

 

On the other hand the Cub Scout WB sounded more like the type a of training a new leader needed to be a better leader. It was an intense week of Cub Scouting presentations, applications and how to work hands on with Cub age boys. I think this is what the new WB program is now, am I wrong?

 

Just last night I talked on the phone with a Troop leader who is sending me six brand new adults for SM Specific this weekend so they can get ILOS and be ready to attend WB in the Fall. Is that a good thing? I would say no two years ago, but now I think it is. Other than WB, I don't think the BSA teaches how to work with boys.

 

I will have to wait and see the new course, if I ever get invited. But there is some concern on my part that how much training can we do before VOLUNTEERS stop volunteering. Our council is even REQUIRING adult training at our JLTC course now. I implemented that requirement and I am pretty sure that is the coming trend because we learned a couple of years ago that JLT is worthless if the adults are clueless about the training youth leadership. So where does it all stop? I am passionate about Boy Scouting. There is no other program out there that does as good a job as Boy Scouting for building character in boys and preparing them for life as an adult. But I do feel that fewer adults understand how or why, and because of that, the program is migrating away from the very attributes that make it great. The only way to save the program is educating the adults. While I am more of a purest who believes that experience builds competence, I hope WB works.

 

Barry

 

[Bob White]

fotoscout,

Do not confuse program adaptation with leadership skill growth. You can be a poor leader as a tiger Leader and still be a poor leader in Webelos. Even though the program adapts to the scout does not mean the leader has.

 

Jbroganjr,

I would like to address each of your points from another point of view.

 

1. Dealing with youth according to age levels Presented and discussed in New Leader Essentials

2. Role of the adult

Presented in the new Fast Start Training Videos

3. Skills - Ideally, the phrase that cubscouters do not know how to camp should not appear nor be an issue. Cubbies would welcome working with BoyScouters to learn the ropes

Different program levels different methods. This information is covered for Cubs in Job Specific training courses, Webelos Leader Outdoor Training (WLOT), Pow Wow, Roundtable and other courses. For Troop Leaders in Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills(IOLS), and Roundtable among other localized programs. The New WLOT training is done parallel to IOLS and the Webelos Leaders share some course segments with the Troop Leaders.

4. To present the ideal of scouting competition

This I beleive is your personal opinion for it is not an ideal of scouting that I have ever seen before or can find in any scouting resource or BSA reference.

5. Where to go, project planning, etc.

This is presented and discussed extensively at Scoutmaster/Asst. Scoutmaster Leader Specic Training, and should be an annual topic at Roundtable.

6. Advancement - a measurement and byproduct of an effective program, not the "reason" we are here. (If a truly effective program is in place, I personally believe we will see not only more rank advancement, but greater retention of youth members)

This is presented and discussed extensively at Scoutmaster/Asst. Scoutmaster Leader Specic Training, and should be an annual topic at Roundtable.

 

7. Marketing and Image - It is up to scouters to not only put their best foot forward, but to get the message out how great this program is.

Wood Badge

8. Leadership Follow Up - not presentation of new material, but application of theory and ideals to real world problems, a sharing of solutions and ideas

 

ROUNDTABLE,

 

 

So you see the points you think need to be covered are covered if the leaders attend training and the trainers follow the syllabus. With the one exception of the point you raise that is not a part of today's scouting.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Bob White

 

PS

EagleDad

Woodbadge is not to train you how to run a troop it is to develop leadership skills. Not Scout Leadership skills.

 

The old Cub Wood Badge was not about cub program skills. It was to develop Cub Leader Trainers.

 

In all due respect, the proglem is not that the Wood Badge course is missing the target, The problem is you misunderstand what the target is.

 

Experience can only build confidence if the individual has a thourough understanding of the tools and what they are supposed to be accomplishing with them. Bad experience can even help make a better leader, but only if they recognize that it was a bad experience.

 

BW

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[KoreaScouter]

Many, if not most, experiences are better in the anticipation than the execution. For those who looked forward to WB as a personal epiphany, then discovered that it was not, their comments are understandable. Maybe we're all partially responsible, because of the level of hype. WB is, as far as I'm concerned, like any other activity in that you get out of it what you put into it...and most of what you put into it are the intangibles.

 

Manufacturing "perfect experiences" in Scouting or any other endeavor requires the precise synchronization of a number of simultaneous external variables. Now, complicate that with the fact that most of the people we're relying on for this are volunteers. It's no wonder that something usually goes wrong. Moreover, we don't all speak with one voice on how the aims and methods are supposed to be applied or delivered; ask a 20 Scouters how the patrol method works in their troops for example, and you'll get way more than one answer!

 

Looking for flaws in Scouting events is like fishing in a barrel -- easy. But, beyond a certain point, it reminds me of the guy who told me the difference between a music lover and an audiophile is that a music lover plays a record and hears music, while an audiophile plays a record and hears pops and scratches. Okay, the example only works if you're old enough to remember records, but the point's still valid.

 

BW's right, also, all the tools and info are out there if you take advantage of the opportunities.

 

KS

 

 

[Eamonn]

Many, thanks for all your input.

I have a lot taken a lot of what has been brought up, to heart.

While, I think that the BSA, does a really good job, with training, and I am a Wood Badge enthusiast. I have tried to read these postings with an open mind.

It does seem that we need to remember that this is a new course.

I first took Wood Badge back in 1972, at Gilwell Park, London.

Going to Gilwell,was no big deal. We as a Troop camped there a lot as it was not that far away. It had a good Pionnering Store, where we could "Sign Out" all the ropes,poles,and stuff needed to build all sorts of pioneering projects.

That was at the Camp site.

The Training Grounds, were hallowed ground. More like a cricket green then a place for real Scouting.

At the course that I attended, the Scoutmaster was held up in such high esteem, that he was almost unapproachable. Not like any Scoutmaster that I ever had or aspired to be like.

We had a great time, I made friends that are lifelong and really true friends, in fact while in England last year OJ,(My son) and I spent a week at summer camp with a fellow Cuckcoo, and his troop. Camping in Nottingham Forest. On the course we spent a week of non-stop rushing, mainly doing things that a Scout would / could/ or might do. Our Patrol was one of the lucky Patrols, all the Guys (No gals!!) were "Practical type Scouts." Most of the "Stuff" assigned for us to do we had done before. All good fun, made better by trying to out do, the other patrols. But looking back, I wonder how much did we really learn ?

The focus was getting this done and joining the Wood Badge set.

The Cub Scout Leader Trainer Wood Badge course, was a week of very intense training. Again a very enjoyable time, but the course could have been run at the Holiday Inn. The Camp site, the Critters, the songs were there as part of Wood Badge, but really had very little to do with preparing me to be a better trainer.

Today, we have Wood Badge for the 21st Century.

We have to look at it for what it is.

It is one portion of the Training.

It is very important that we try and get away from the idea, that is the be all and end of all training.

First it must follow the other required training's for the position. But it is not the end.

When I wanted to be a better Commissioner, I took myself to Philmont for the Conference, and attended the Commissioners College.

There are all sorts of opporttunities, to enhance, the training that you have already taken.

I suppose, the BSA,could build a Wood Badge Training Center, where everything would be, just so.With the brightest and best presenters. But I would hope that part of Wood Badge is the development of the Trainers. It is the job of the Course Director, to ensure that this presenter is up to speed, in order that the paticipant feels that the time and money invested, were worth while.

Yes they would be able to provide the ideal setting, but how accessible would it be ?

It does seem that the going rate for the course is about $200.00, and while most Councils are having a hard time providing the ideal facilities, they are doing the best that they can with what they have.

 

[Eagledad]

>>Woodbadge is not to train you how to run a troop it is to develop leadership skills. Not Scout Leadership skills. >In all due respect, the proglem is not that the Wood Badge course is missing the target, the problem is you misunderstand what the target is. >Experience can only build confidence if the individual has a thourough understanding of the tools and what they are supposed to be accomplishing with them. Bad experience can even help make a better leader, but only if they recognize that it was a bad experience.

[Bob White]

Eagledad,

I believe you are still operating under a number of misconceptions regarding Wood Badge.

 

"New leaders took it as how to run a troop and pushed it on their scouts they same way they experience it."

 

That was the original intention of Wood Badge, to train Scoutmasters to operate a troop. That has changed over the decades as Wood Badge has gone through a number of changes.

 

"The new course teaches leadership skills for working with boys, and not the same leadership skills you teach to scouts."

 

That's not correct. Wood Badge for the 21st Century teaches leadership skills. Not leadership skills for working with boys, JUST leadership skills. The methods you are exposed to in Wood Badge work in ANY leadership situation in or out of the scouting environment.

 

" >The old Cub Wood Badge was not about cub program skills. It was to develop Cub Leader Trainers.