Pack committee Meetings

[sctmom]

Per the Cub Scout Leader Book, 2001 edition.

 

Monthly Pack Leaders' Planning Meeting

 

Who? All adult den and pack leaders attend this planning meeting.

 

It goes on to say den leaders turn in advancement reports to the person responsible for obtaining awards.

Den leaders turn over den dues to the pack treasurer.

Special committees report on plans for the upcoming pack meeting or special events for the upcoming months.

 

 

SOOOOO, that sounds to me like den leaders and committee members are in the SAME meeting.

 

There is NO mention of "committee meetings" vs. "den leader's meeting". Maybe in a previous version but not the CURRENT one.

 

 

 

[Bob White]

Thank you for looking in the book sctmom. I stand corrected. The new book has the 2 meetings now as one. That is a change from the previous version and I should have checked first.

 

Now meet me half way sctmom and admit that nowhere in the section you sight, which has a detailed agenda of the Pack Leader's Meeting, does it call for anyone to vote on anything.

[Zorn Packte]

Now meet me half way sctmom and admit that nowhere in the section you sight, which has a detailed agenda of the Pack Leader's Meeting, does it call for anyone to vote on anything.

 

See OGE, this is what I mean.

[Bob White]

Give me a break Zorn. This isn't a term paper, and the purpose of this particular board is to discuss scouting. If you want to play grammarian then you should consider a more appropriate board.

I hope this post doesn't offend your standards.

[sctmom]

It doesn't say you have to vote, it doesn't say you can't vote.

 

It also doesn't say how long the meeting should be.

 

The book gives guidelines of what should be covered and a basic outline.

 

[jbroganjr]

Bob, show some scout spirit and give up on being right!

 

This is inane to see this childish on all parts in

these posts and does not promote a positive image of scouting. If I was not involved in scouting and read all these posts, I don't think I'd want to join such a nitpicky, he said/she said, Im right, its in book, simple nastiness by so many participants on this forum.

 

The stated purpose of this forum is for scouters to share ideas and build program, character and ideas.

 

One meeting makes sense, back to topic here. The CM job is the pack program and with everyone there, their is less miscommunication on involvement of dens, what the CM envisions, so committee can help so that a wholesome, well planned meeting comes together for the boys.

[Bob White]

jbroganjr,

I acknowledged I was going by a method that has been changed in the current program and I have no problem supporting that change. But that does not invalidate what I have written concerning the voting. I am not saying you can't vote. do it if you want. My point was you don't need to, you are not required to and there are better methods to operate by. There is nothing in that which violates scout spirit.

 

Go Back and read the string that started it all and you will see that all I did was say that voting wasn't required and gave examples of why. I was the one on the defense not the offense.

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[sctmom]

I snipped some Bob White quotes from the other thread: (with a few typo corrections)

 

****

There is really nothing to vote on.

So the need for votes does not exist in the month to month operations of a unit.

Nowhere that I am aware of in BSA training or literature does it state that the committee operates by majority rule. *** so then we should NOT vote or let majority rule? ***

 

This is not a 'majority rules' committee. This is a 'here is your assignment now run with it' committee. *** again, no majority rule EVER? ***

 

If the Cub Master and the Committee Chair decide to do a Pinewood in February that is their decision to make. *** so these 2 people do whatever they want even if every other pack leader says NO, won't work ***

 

The point is you don't need to vote to see if you will do a pinewood or where or when. Your program volunteers make a plan share it and the committee supports it. This is not brain surgery it does not require micromanaging.

 

Vote on what? Where does it say that the committee operates on a majority rule? What the heck does a pack buy for $2000? Read the rest of 33 and 34 and tell me where it it says the committee votes on ...ANYTHING.

 

I have said that voting wasn't required, wasn't needed, wasn't taught in the scouting materials.

I never said it wasn't permitted.

 

****

 

{{{I am not saying you can't vote. do it if you want. My point was you don't need to, you are not required to and there are better methods to operate by. There is nothing in that which violates scout spirit. }}}

 

Bob, you have used some strong statements along the lines of "why vote? vote on WHAT?". That implies if any committee ever has a formal or informal vote, or lets the majority rule, then they are WRONG.

 

You also are very adamant that everyone know the literature (which I agree is good). I just looked at the 1996 printing of the Cub Leader's handbook and it also only refers to "pack leader's meetings". So this is NOT a new thing. I can't find my 1999 version right now. So, I could blast you for not being up to date and insisting you KNOW the rules when you don't have a current book, but I won't do that.

 

 

I appreciate your advice more than most people on this board but found you a little off base with the "there is NO need for a vote".

 

You also wrote:

Every Easter I get together with my parents and 4 brothers and their wives. The twelve of us make our plans for the family Christmas party for us and the kids. The party lasts for a few days and so there are lots of plans to make, and yet, we never take a vote. We talk we volunteer we cooperate, we do our assigned tasks. No vote! Of course we keep mom, the committee chair informed of our progress.

 

My family does similiar thing for Thanksgiving -- 40+ people invited each year for the big dinner, everyone brings food, etc. The ones of us planning it talk via email. If you ask me, I say we "vote" on things. My sister emails me and my mom and says "what do you think about buying a precooked ham?". We say "yes" or "no, because..". To me that is a vote. Did we cast special ballots? No. I guess you could consider us the Thanksgiving committee or the Thanksgiving sub-committee. Either way, I say we vote. It doesn't mean we have secret ballots, it doesn't mean we bog down the process, etc.

 

Same with my mother sends an email to myself, my brother and my sister EVERY year to say "let's not exchange gifts for Christmas this year, because......". Now, if we all said "yes we will", my mom would say "okay". Even though we ALL know that majority doesn't normally override a mother's wishes. Is that a vote? I say yes.

 

I also understand that not everything should be voted on. Goodness, most meetings are long enough as is.

 

I've rambled long enough. Sorry, I really wish I had more to do at work than read forums all day (it's not as much fun as it sounds to have nothing to do at work).

 

Bob, will you at least apologize for fussing at those who choose to vote (formally or informally) periodically on issues?

 

 

[acco40]

The troop that my family is involved in is going through some trying leadership changes. Our committee chair (great guy, but for now has about two weeks of experience as CC) talked with a member of the charter organization. This member was a former SM, highly respected by all, sort of a SM emeritus if you will.

 

Some of his comments concerned committee voting. For example, in the selection of a new SM, the committee chair should formulate a fairly small (4 person) sub-committee, do their homework, interview candidates, and then present their recommendation to the full committee. If they did their job correctly, consensus is done, and no voting is required. A full committee vote could involve spouses of candidates, create factions, etc. and so ideally, no vote would be needed.

 

However, not all troops run with an ideal situations. Just realize that voting has advantages and disadvantages. To just say that voting should or should not occur misses the point.

[eisely]

Bob White has taken me to task in other threads on this issue of voting. While formal voting is not normally necessary there may be situations where it is necessary. In another thread several months ago I think I was the first on this forum to use the word "consensus" to describe normal committee decision making. I also observed that in, what is now almost fourteen years as an adult volunteer, a unit committee in which I participated found it necessary to go to a vote only once.

 

Bob is correct in saying that taking formal votes adds a usually unecessary layer of bureaucracy, but to take the position he seems to take, that a vote is never required, strikes me as a little dogmatic.

 

For those committees faced with tough decisions where a consensus cannot be found, a vote may be the only way to resolve an issue. What is wrong with that? Just because BSA doesn't authorize the use of Roberts Rules of Order does not exclude their use.

[Bob White]

sctmom,

I didn't snipe at anyone who chooses to vote I merely said it was not needed.

 

I got very frustrated with the posters who did not say they chose to vote, or ask how does one operate without voting, but at those who jumped my case for daring to say that voting wasn't required, needed, or taught in BSA training resources. I also took exceptions to a few who grossly misrepresented what I said.

 

You for instance wrote that I said "voting was not permitted". Nowhere in my writings does that appear. Another poster repeatedly wrote that I said committee members could not communicate with each other, and at no time did I say or even imply that, and yet it was constantly reported that I did. Another slapped at me for always spouting rules, but this isn't a rule and I never said it was.

 

A couple of posters even agreed with me yet none attacked them for saying the same thing I said. Instead I was personally lampooned as a know it all. In fact only one poster had the courtesy to ask for an example of how to operate without voting.

 

Few took the time to read the committee book to say "you know what, it doesn't say we need to vote", or to ask what the advantages of not voting would be. They jumped me because I said their was another way to do things.

 

There are a lot of people who read this board and don't write in for whatever reason. I know because for a year I was one of them. I sat back and read some of absolute tripe being spouted by some posters as scouting gospel that wasn't even close to the true nature of scouting. Yet no one attacked them. I give you the actual scouting resources and I catch flack. I admit that my attitude the last couple of weeks has taken a tailspin, but the frustration caused by the amount of misinformation that some of the posters spread on this sight is incredible and I let it vent in some posts. Mostly with two posters who throw personal insults at me and others (and I'm not convinced they aren't the same person) and I choose to fight back, and with two others who claim vast experience but wouldn't know a real scouting program if it walked up and kissed them on the nose.

 

I apologized for being incorrect on the cub program merging the two meetings into one. I stand by my statement that voting in committee meetings is not needed, not required, and not taught in the scouting resources, and has many disadvantages. I make no apologies for supporting the policies and methods of the program or for continuing to participate in discussions using the scouting methods as my premise. I make no apologies for defending myself against personal attacks and I would appreciate it if posters would stick to the topic at hand and the concepts I write about, and leave the personal attacks out.

 

Bob White

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[VARCOURT]

Our Pack Committee consists of any Officers "Treasurer" "Advancements" ect, all of the den leaders and the Pack leader. Also ANY adult parent who wishes to attend. We had an out line of what is discussed and we DO vote on items, approve the minutes and the finances. by the time we are finished discussing the issues we usually all agree and vote just to show it was agreed upon by everyone. This way NO ONE makes all the dicisions and NO ONE in the Pack can complain since everyone is invited. Usually it is the same one who show up to every meeting.

 

 

Example

We have a few new Weblos. When the Camporee was discussed at the meeting and the parents were told this is a Weblo only camping event, no siblings allowed the parents complained. Not one showed up for the commitee meeting and it was voted that this was an event for the boys and that our anual family camp was the only camp the siblings should be allowed at. When these parents are told tomorrow they will be told that it was voted on and the committee agreed. They should have shown up!

 

That is the BEST reason for voting.