Excluded from Overnight Experience at Wood badge

[acco40]

Similar to KoreaScouter, during my Wood Badge course (Wood Badge for the 21st Century) the first three days the males and females slept in different bunk areas. During the next three days, we slept in tents with our patrols, one patrol to a camp site. My patrol (Da Bears) had one female. I think it teaches respect and courtesy having a female (or more) in the patrol. Yes the men act different in the presence on a female (mostly improved behavior). Plus, if a female desires to become an adult leader in a troop, she needs to be comfortable in a camp site with other men. By the way, all slept in their own tents.

 

A question I have about having the females sleep near the staff. It is my understanding that one evening, the staff IS NOT PRESENT. Did this occur? If so, where did the females "students" spend the night?

 

Now, back to my ticket ...

(This message has been edited by acco40)

[LauraT7]

i have not taken Wood Badge - i hope to do so this year.

 

I have been with my son through scouts since Tigers, and have ALWAYS camped with my den / pack/ troop. Sometimes I am the only female - and I have worked hard to be part of the group so the men and boys will accept me. This includes sleeping by myself in a tent, far enough away from the boys to hear a yell, but not a whisper. The adults always camp a noticeable space from the boys.

 

If I were to attend training and be excluded from the regular program for my gender, I would definately feel discriminated against and be very offended.

 

why on earth would it be OK by BSA policies (and youth protection) for me to be the only female Adult on a campout with the youth, and sleep in my own tent at the same site, but NOT do so with all Adults????? That simply makes NO SENSE.

 

If the majority of the group (district/ council) is of a religious persuasion that prohibits co-ed campsites - I hope that you make it common knowledge prior to the event, so that those who want the full experience of working with the entire patrol experience, can choose to train at another time or or with another group that does not impose it's religious restraints on others not of their beliefs.

 

 

[johnsned]

As I mentioned in a previous post our council offers three Wood Badge Courses per year. The one I attended then worked on staff for observes separate sleeping facilities for men and women. We interpret facilities as campsites. Yes this is due to our religious beliefs. The vast majority of participants to the particular course require this accommodation to attend Wood Badge. This course was started to serve those groups with this specific needs and also not to camp on Sundays. This is clearly stated in the application/brochure. In fact the following statement is printed on the application were in applicant signs;

 

I understand that attendance at all sessions is expected and required for certification. I have completed Adult Leader Basic Training appropriate to my current Scouting position. I understand that men and women will have separate sleeping areas. I also understand the $50.00 non-refundable deposit will hold my place on the course.

 

I understand that we all have different opinions about this, I began to participate in this forum to increase my understanding about this issue and to gain a better appreciation for those who have a different opinion.

 

[evmori]

What is the point of separate sleeping facilities for men & women? It seems this is taking PC to the next level! By separating the men & women would diminish the patrol method.

 

If this is a result of the new course then I feel this policy needs reviewed & changed. I see no benefit.

 

johnsned,

Is your application a local on or a nation one?

 

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[OldGreyEagle]

Ed,

 

When I did the outdoor experience for the new WoodBadge Course, we had a female member of our patrol and she slept in her own tent in our campsite. Being from a troop that doesnt exclude Moms from overnight camping, I never gave it a second thought and neither did the rest of the patrol. For that matter, during the first weekend (we did two 3 day weekends) All the patrols were in separate campsites in wall tents with cots. Our Lady Bear was in her tent, I in mine and so on. Never once did anyone mention anything along the lines if she

should have been there.

 

Its not part of the new WoodBadge to sepatate the sexes. I respect religious beliefs that wish to do so, but its not part of the program, only a local modification

[johnsned]

Evmori, it is a local application, for a council course.

 

OldGrayEagle this is a local policy, supported by National.

 

[sst3rd]

I realize that my Woodbadge Course was only 14 years ago, but we had several female Scouters who were assigned to separate Patrols. We used the normal walled tents from summer camp, and camped together in normal Patrol sites. Yes, they slept in a tent by themselves, but smack tab in the middle of the Patrol campsite like everybody else. It was a non-issue. The issue was/is Scouting. We had a great time. We still keep in touch.

 

sst3rd

[evmori]

johnsned,

Are you sure this is supported by National? If it is, then I feel National and your local council are wrong.

 

OGE,

I haven't taken the new course yet. I'm glad to hear this is a local thing but if National endorses it, it makes me wonder??

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

 

[dbraxtonw]

When I took Wood Badge in 1979, there were two women in my patrol. They shared a tent in our patrol campsite.

 

I find nothing in either the syllabus or the administrative guide for Wood Badge for the 21st Century that requires separate facilities for men and women (except to ensure reasonable privacy).

 

David B. Wilson

North Carolina

[Mr. White]

Johnsned:

 

Sir, I totally respect everyone's religious beliefs, including yours. But to instill draconian morays into a highly professional scouting institution, such as the Wood Badge, and then to say it is endorsed by the National Council is wrong.

 

I fully understand your local District's issuance of these local rules, maybe even the council endorsing them, but never the National Council.

 

Having been on Staff 8 times, and currently on staff now for the 9th time, and having trained/served over 440 highly professional adult volunteers, of which I can truly say the very best have been women, even your slightest hint of sexual inuendo is sickening.

 

If I were a woman, which I am not, I wouldn't spend one second in your administered Wood Badge course, as this does not follow the spirit of scouting, Baden Powell or the Gilwell legacy.

 

My wife is insulted at your 18th century feelings toward women. And of course she is a good ole Buffalo too. (She got her beads and Kudo horn even before I got mine). I am proud of her and every other woman who has made it through Wood Badge. They should all be proud. And you know what ? If you knew people that got a divorce from the Wood Badge course, I only believe it is because of your group's feelings about mixed scouter that forced it. If you believe it will happen strong enough, even though it didn't, it will still come true to the weak minded.

 

I have always had the highest regard for every Adult volunteer I ever came across. But I am going to have to ask the Lord to forgive me tonight for my feelings toward you and your local group.

 

This is the 21st Century Wood Badge now, why don't your fellow scouters and you join us. The youth of today need good trained leaders and treating women like second class citizens does not present a good example.

 

Mr. White

 

 

[johnsned]

Hello Mr. White,

 

I wrote you a private message to trying to explain my point of view, but I got no response so I felt that I should post this message. I can tell by your message that you were offended by what I have written on this topic, although I dont think that you read all of my postings on this. I am sorry I made you feel that so angry, I think you just misunderstand my point of view on this.

 

There are many religious groups that have express charge that married persons cannot attend an overnight trips/training course with persons of the opposite sex without their spouse. BSA National working with those groups wanting to make a way for those groups to be able to attend Wood Badge suggested said that a council could interpret separate sleeping facilities as separate campsites for their Wood Badge Courses. BSA policy calls for separate facilities when for coed camping with the sole exception of Family Camps. Is a tent a facility? Is a campsite a facility? Since there is no agreement on that, National and my Council came up with this option.

 

If for the first weekend if you were in a dormitory setting, would you have men and women share a dorm room? I think the comparison is valid, a dorm room isnt too much smaller than a camp site, and then the only difference is two sheet on nylon tent material, could you string up a sheet?

 

I too have been on Wood Badge staff many times. I am also working on a course that is not the one with separate sleeping areas. Since I am the odd man out so to speak, I, when it is time to sleep excuse my self and sleep in a separate area. I dont make a big deal about it and unless people ask me about it I dont think I need to make mention of it.

 

I have tried to explain why we have separate sleeping areas, not based on the value of women it is based on a moral code we chose to follow. I understand you can disagree with the our standards or our interpretation of morality but I hope you can understand that it comes from a pure place, a desire to be true to God and follow his wishes and not from some need to or desire to treat women like second class citizens. On the contrary it is our reverence for women specifically for our wives (or husbands, we have women on this course with the same belief) and that this is a way we show respect and reverence for our marriages. We believe that God has set specific boundaries for us that we should not cross. These boundaries are there to protect us, granted if one or two of these guidelines are ignored no big deal, the sky wont fall and the world wont end. But for me it sets a pattern that I dont wish to follow.

 

One thing I wish to make clear is that this rule isn't implemented because people don't trust themselves, or they feel weak in their convictions, or they feel that if women sleep in a tent within close proximity they will lose control. None of this is the case, and to say so offends the people who feel it important to follow this practice. Many of the groups that observe this practice of separate sleeping areas do so because of their religious practice or their faith in God and willingness to follow what they believe to be the principles of God and not the values of contemporary society. I dont understand how thinking that means that I want women to be second-class citizens.

 

I respect those how have different opinions, I dont look down on them or think they have less faith in God, and I didnt imply that, people simply observe their faith differently. I can see how some would make the argument that this is oppressive to some. Perhaps that has to do with the way the issue is handled. I guess there are conflicting values and if either side gets their way the other can claim to be discriminated against. What is the right answer? I think that what ever the decision is it will be questioned and criticized, and someone can argue foul. I think we should take advantage of this forum to understand why this practice occurs and understand the differing points of view as opposed accusing others of being weak minded, bigots or chauvinist.

 

We all uphold the scout oath, which states that we promise to do our duty to God. Some groups believe that this is part of their duty. It might appear to be trivial, old fashioned or discriminatory, that is because you dont understand why we believe this way you I feel that you prefer to make personal attacks rather than try to understand another point of view.. I believe that this is my duty to God, as I see it and I should be true to that. I dont pretend to think that I am going to convince you that I am right I just hope that you can see the motive is faith not discrimination.

 

I know this is going to be picked apart and criticized, and I believe it is futile to try and persuade you that there is another side to this question but I am a glutton for abuse and punishment.

(This message has been edited by johnsned)

[SagerScout]

Now, now, scouters. Even though I personally am fairly thin-skinned about the female discrimination thing, being female and all, I don't feel offended by the conditions Johnsned outlined, for the simple reason that he says it is stated in the course information. Warning given - like it or not, there it is. I can choose to attend under the conditions described or I can choose to stay home and try to make the next course. Either way, it's my choice.

 

Thank you, fellas, for your support of women in the BSA, and I do appreciate it, but as far as I personally go you may reserve your outrage for another case.

 

I've not been to wood badge yet but in SM training I've camped with an otherwise all-male patrol and just set up my tent next to the gentlemen (and I do mean gentlemen, they all truly were....) with no comment or concern from anyone, as far as I know. Didn't bother me, I guess it didn't bother them, it isn't against my religion and I hope it wasn't against theirs as I would not want to even accidentally cause someone to violate his religious beliefs.

 

Where I could maybe see getting all offended is if I were already there, tent half-up, and someone THEN said in a scandalized tone "You can't camp HERE! You're too close to the MEN!" Or if the actual activities were designed to exclude women or put them at a competitive disadvantage (peeing contest, anyone?). Or if I were sent home as too fragile to sleep in the outdoors. But if it's just a matter of walking to another site at bedtime, it wouldn't bother me all that much, especially if fore-warned as apparently the participants were in Johnsgren's example.

 

I don't think the kosher kid example applies as written, but if a camp were billed as a camp primarily for Jewish kids, with a Kosher kitchen promised, I would not expect my Christian sons to go and raise the roof over the menu - I'd tell him that there were different rules for food at this camp, and he was to eat what was given him if he liked it, or not if he didn't or wasn't hungry, but without offering anyone any static about it. Simply a matter of learning to live in a civilized society.

 

Now, y'all all make up, ok? We've got important Scouting to do - games to plan, menus to work out, and camp to schedule....

 

 

[Eamonn]

johnsned:

I would hope that we would all try to make this forum "A safe Haven."

Yes there will be times when we may not be as understanding as we ought to be.

I would also hope that we do everything possible too allow the Safe Haven, be part of all that we do.

If I had to deal with someone that for a valid reason required something or was uncomfortable doing something, I would do my upmost to put things right.

However, again things don't always go as they ought. For example, a couple of Fridays ago my son was at a JLTC development weekend. I looked in to make sure everything was ok, and there they all are munching on hamburgers !!

We are Roman Catholic, and hamburger munching during Lent, is a no,no.

Of course O J, could have, should have, said No.

 

[johnsned]

Thank you SagerScout and Eamonn,

 

 

I really appreciate your comments. I think you have looked at this issue fairly, I understand you don't agree with me but you understand my intentions. Like I said in my (many) comments, I know that people disagree with this policy; I can understand their point of view. I would never ask anybody to modify their activity to suit my particular needs.

 

This is only practiced in one of the three council Wood Badge courses, and this course was created for those that want separate sleeping areas.

 

I appreciate the contributions of women in scouting my wife is a Scouter too. I feel that a women place is anywhere she wants it to be.

[bmchugh]

As this topic in now three pages long, some of the recent posters may not have read the initial concern of mine. The Woodbadge course was NOT advertised as following a particilar 'religious' practice on the overnight camping situation. I was told after spending three days at Woodbadge that I could not sleep at the same campsite with other campers because of MY sex. The staff did not ask the other patrol members how they felt about it and when I asked for a confirmation on the decision from our council executive, who I assumed would give advise per BSA National policy, was told that the decision stood and I just had to go along with it. Our council professionals are ALL of a particular religious denomination and the decision was based on that.

 

I have asked the council to come up with a way to notify attendees ahead of time or try to put patrols together based on a commonality of 'overnight camping beliefs' to which I was told "that practice would be discriminatory". However, no one seemed to mind discriminating against me last year.

 

Now, that said, I have finished my ticket and am about to receive my beads, however, wish I could just start all over again in a new council, who would puts BSA first and religion second!