Excluded from Overnight Experience at Wood badge

[johnsned]

There are many religious groups that have express charge that married persons cannot attend an overnight trip/training course with persons of the opposite sex without their spouse. BSA National working with those groups wanting to make a way for those groups to be able to attend suggested said that a council could make separate sleeping areas a rule for their Wood Badge Courses. The BSA policy calls for separate facilities. Is a tent a facility? A campsite? Since there is no agreement on that, National came up with this option to settle the argument, so that people wouldnt argue the Separate Facilities

 

They have many justifications for their beliefs that we might not agree with but we all uphold the scout oath, which state that we promise to do our duty to God. Some groups believe that this is part of their duty. It might seem trivial to some, we would asks Orthodox Jews to eat a non-kosher meal, or a Mormon to drink coffee? Even though not being able to eat a ham and cheese or drink a cup of coffee seems trivial to some.

 

I have been on staff on a Wood Badge Course that has separate sleeping areas for men and women. I challenge any one to tell me how that made a material difference. If sleeping in the same campsite is a "bonding" activity then I think that feeds the argument that it might not be appropriate.

 

Many believe it is better to avoid temptation than to fight it.

 

[bmchugh]

I disagree with you johnsned and this is why: Woodbadge in my opinion was a week of effort on each participants part to form a connection or 'patrol' out of basic strangers. Part of our learning there was to experience how scout patrols can use activities to strengthen the patrol (through competitive activities, etc.) and then we played a game that took that relationship and challenged it with individual vs. patrol vs. troop's best interest. ("WAYC"). That night was either a building experience or one that could rock the foundation of the patrol depending on how the patrol members supported each other and the troop. Bonding and strengthening of the patrol was the primary foundation of what I think Woodbadge was about and we learned how as leaders to help our scouts go through those processes with support and caring from adults.

To be then 'excluded' from a patrol activity at Woodbadge after that 'bond' had been developed through thick and thin, was an insult and has nothing to do with wanting to have a relationship outside comradery (a person who shares interests and activities in common with others) with the other patrol members, male or female.

[Twocubdad]

johnsned;

 

Let me torture your analogy a bit further. You've got a kosher boy in your unit. One of the non-kosher boys brings a cheeseburger in his sack lunch. Do you make the kid with the cheeseburger eat alone so a not to tempt or offend the kosher Scout?

 

At some point everyone must be responsible for their own behavior. If someone is precluded from sharing a campsite with female Scouters because of their beliefs -- or because they have such a tenuous grip on their urges and/or marriages -- then maybe they are the ones who should tent elsewhere.

 

I am sure that sometime in the history of Scouting married men and women have met and become involved. It probably happens in Kiwanis, Rotary and even at church functions, for that matter. I would suggest to you that most of those relationships developed over some time as a result of mutual interests, working together and spending time together, not simply physical proximity.

 

If two people are predisposed to have an affair, they will find the time and opportunity for it. Scout camp ain't it. It's a half-mile walk to the latrine. Neither have had a shower in 36 hours. And they're going to do it a a tent pitched 30 feet from 12 other people? Sure.

(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

[johnsned]

Hello bmchugh,

 

I don't want this to become a debate I understand you have strong feelings about this issue. I wrote my response from my experience and understanding. Your opinion comes from yours and is also valid.

 

I would like to know how does sleeping in a tent 5 feet away have to do with team building? Why is it different than being 50 feet away?

 

I am going to be on staff for my third year, I am going to be in charge of the "Facilities and Arrangements". We have this issue in our course. Our course has separate sleeping areas for men and women. I would like to understand. For me it doesn't seem like a big deal, but I am not as affected as you are. So I would like to gain some understanding.

 

Is it that you were asked or maybe told to go to a separate area or was actually being in the separate area or both. While I don't see the problem like you do, I would like to get a better understanding so I can deal with this better.

 

[SR540Beaver]

johnsned,

 

I think the issue is that a patrol functions as a unit. A patrol camps together. Do you let your scouts in a patrol set up their tents wherever they choose? Can they move 50, 100, 200 ft away from the camp and set up where they want? The folks at Woodbadge are supposed to function like a patrol so they can understand the patrol method and teach the patrol method. If they don't use the patrol method, why bother? Let's put a different twist on it. Instead of male and female, change it to black and white. Would you have a problem with Woodbadge or a scout troop segregating people of differet races?

 

I have to agree (while anything is possible) that you can get pretty grubby over a 3 day period in the woods and with a large group of people functioning as a patrol, two people sneajing off into the woods or into a tent would quickly be known. If something is going to happen, it will be after and away from Woodbadge, not actually at it. And if that is the worry, then it begs the question of whether to allow women at all?

[johnsned]

This is getting ridiculous.

 

Providing separate sleeping areas for Men and Women for the 6-7 hours you sleep, is in NO WAY the same as segregating Blacks and Whites. The reasons and motivation is completly different. It is insulting that you would even try to equate the two.

 

OK now would you please tell me how sleeping in the same campsite helps "Team Building"?

 

[SR540Beaver]

I'm sorry if I was insulting, I didn't mean to be. But please explain what the motivation and reason is for needing to segregate the men from the women for the 6 or 7 hours they will be asleep. That time seems to be less "dangerous" than the time they would be awake and interacting with one another.

 

As for what sleeping with tents side by side in the same campsite has to do with team building, it is no different than building a fire together or cooking together. When you cease to do it as a unit, you cease being a team. You don't leave the outfield in the dugout when the infield takes the field. To split people who are a team/unit/patrol for a reason such as gender, race or religion is to divide the whole team concept.

[evmori]

When I went to Woodbadge, we had two females in my patrol. Their tent was next ot mine & there were two guys on the other side of them. We had no problems. We respected each other's privacy. Tenting together as a patrol DOES promote team building. If your patrol is right there, you feel safer. If your patrol sets up tents 50 feet apart, then you are only IN a patrol not PART of a patrol.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

 

"I used to be an Eagle ....................

[bmchugh]

Johnsned,

The morning of our third day we had a patrol meeting to plan for the overnight camping. During that discussion, our patrol leader told me that the SPL had announced at their meeting that the women would stay in the campsite with the other female staffers and could not camp at the patrol sites. This was not 5 or 50 feet away from the patrol but clear across the camp in an open field. All of the women had been placed in different patrols. Had two of us been together, we could have possibly tented together at a closer proximity to the patrol campsites, but no one, not even a female staffer was willing to share my tent with me because it might look inappropriate to some 'other' people, to have women and mens tents set up in close proximity.

 

I felt that the staff and other female participants didn't trust me. If I had been a scout in his patrol, pulled out and told I had to be supervised by the 'leaders' more closely during the night... I don't know, I guess it made me feel almost ashamed of my wanting to be included and I hadn't even done or thought of doing something wrong. No one had even given me a chance to prove I was trustworthy and that I wanted nothing more than to live by the scout law to the best of my ability.

 

You are right johnsned, that we cannot assume we know what is right in all situations. For the other 4 female participants, they were more comfortable being separated from the patrols, and they were supported in their decision. But I wanted to be a part of the group, around the campfire, stoking the coals and not being led off to another part of the camp like a punished child. Why were they not able to support my decision to stay with my patrol? BTW, my patrol members were all in favor of having me camp in my tent at the campsite, so it wasn't because any of them were uncomfortable with the idea.

[SR540Beaver]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most Woodbadge's have you bunk with a partner? If there are two men in a tent and two women in a teny 5 feet away from each other, just what is going to happen??? There is no single privacy for anyone. Heck, most latrines don't even have doors on the stalls! How can sleeping in a tent buddied up with a person of the same sex and having a tent next door housing people of the opposite sex be inappropriate? What if a man leaves town on business and his next neigbors wife goes to take care of a sick relative? Now you have two neighbors of the opposite sex, home alone, next door to each other with only a mere 15 feet between their houses. Can they be trusted not to have wild sex in the absence of their spouses? Would it be inappropriate for them to be home alone. Yes, a Scout has duty to God and part of that means being morally straight. It doesn't mean avoiding close proximiety to the opposite sex. What about a Scout being trustworthy? I wouldn't have married my wife if I didn't think I could trust her.

 

The difference with the kosher food example is that you are not forcing everyone else to eat a kosher meal because one person is. The kosher meal is an issue for one person and provisions are made for that one person. The kosher person excludes themselve from eating what the others are. When you exclude a woman from sleeping in the patrol campsite, you are excluding her because of someone else's wants and needs, she is not excluding herself. You are desciminating against her and excluding her based on her gender where in the other case you are including the kosher person by letting them eat a different meal.

 

I'd say the best decision is to provide three facilities. You could tell everyone that this is the patrol campsite and everyone is welcome to pitch there tent. Then you could say that for any who are not comfortable with have the opposite sex in the same campsite, the men will stay in a different camp and the women will stay in another different campsite. Now your patrol is split into three campsites and everyone is happy except that you've blown the whole patrol concept out of the water. But if that is what you have to do because some people are insecure about the strength of their convictions, then that is what you have to do.

[johnsned]

I really appreciate all of the points of view expressed here. I have learned a lot about what people think about this issue.

 

Often when this issue is brought up during the Wood Badge course it is done poorly. The course I am on staff for makes it clear in the application that there will be separate sleeping areas for men and women, and we let the potential participant know that this particular course has this regulation and that other council sponsored courses do not, so they can decide if they are comfortable or not. The majority of the participants that attend that course wish to have this regulation in place. We encourage the patrols that have women to use their campsite for sleep only to try to limit the exclusion the female participant might feel.

 

Being a man it is difficult for me to put my self in the place of women and know how it makes them feel to have to stay in a separate campsite.

 

This is a difficult issue. No easy answer. To say that one solution fits all is clearly not the case. However this issue needs to be handled with respect to the feeling of the person affected.

 

One thing I wish to make clear is that this rule isn't implemented because people don't trust themselves, or they feel weak in their convictions, or they feel that if women sleep in a tent within close proximity they will lose control. None of this is the case, and to say so offends the people who feel it important to follow this practice. Many of the groups that observe this practice of separate sleeping areas do so because of their religious practice.

 

We believe that God has set specific boundaries for us that we should not cross. These boundaries are there to protect us, granted if one or two are ignored no big deal, the sky wont fall and the world wont end.

 

So this has nothing to do with anyones lack of ability to control themselves, but their faith in God and willingness to follow what they believe to be the principles of God and not the values of contemporary society.

 

I respect those how have different opinions, I dont look down on them or think they have less faith in God, and I didnt imply that, people simply observe their faith differently. I can see how some would make the argument that this is oppressive to some. Perhaps that has to do with the way the issue is handled. I guess there are conflicting values and if either side gets their way the other can claim to be discriminated against. What is the right answer? I think that what ever the decision is it will be questioned and criticized, and someone can argue foul. I think we should take advantage of this forum to understand why this practice occurs and understand the differing points of view as opposed to saying what is right and wrong.

 

(I apologize for the long post)(This message has been edited by johnsned)(This message has been edited by johnsned)

[Twocubdad]

Johnsned;

 

Thanks for a very thoughtful post. I can certainly appreciate you position.

 

My point is that the burden should be on the person(s) who have the special obligations. If your beliefs require that you not sleep in the same campsite as the women, then you should excuse yourself at bedtime. Bmchugh should not be denied part of the Woodbadge patrol experience to accommodate your convictions.

 

By the same turn, if I'm kosher or vegan, I shouldn't expect the entire group to restrict their diets just to accommodate me. I'll take the salad and baked potato and keep my mouth shut about the porkchops.

[johnsned]

I agree with you that if I were the only participant that needed special arrangements, I would certainly go and excuse myself to sleep and not impose on the group. In the course I was on staff for 3/4 or more of the participants required those special arrangements. So if everyone requiring separate sleeping area left the patrol site it is likely that the patrol site would be empty, or if there was a female participant that wanted to sleep and the patrol site, she may very well find herself alone. This course was created for those people specifically for those scouters requiring this. So maybe my experience is different.

 

I certainly understand bmchughs point of view, and I would probably be upset if I was in her place and asked to leave. I guess I started my posts on this subject trying to defend my side when all I really wanted is to explain why this regulation exists and share my perspective.

 

I know I have gained more understanding and insight on this issue. I appreciate the interchange of opinions.

 

[KoreaScouter]

My WB course also announced separate sleeping areas for men/women, and they did. It was one of those moveable wall things, that looks like an accordion and you drag it across the room and snap it into the other wall. No problems.

 

When we camped, each patrol (all had at least one female) tented all patrol members in the patrol campsite. If a patrol had 2 women, they tented together. If just one, she tented alone. That, too, is separate sleeping areas. Again, no problems.

 

KS

 

 

[SR540Beaver]

Johnsned,

 

Maybe I missed it, but I never understood why the requirement existed for your group? Was it heavily LDS or some other faith? Why did they feel it was important to not sleep in the same camp? All I heard you say was that it had to do with religion. What was the specific reasoning? Don't get me wrong, I'm not being critical, just curious. I have been a Southern Baptist all of my 45 years. Our youth church summer camp was huge with thousands of teens there each week. We were not allowed to swim together because it was not considered "appropriate" either. The swim schedule was broken by age and sex. If the opposite sex even got close to the pool, they were run off by guards. We all thought it was pretty silly. Back home we all went to the same pools together to swim. There was a recreation area with several natural pools about 30 minutes drive from the church camp. One of the highlights of camp each year was when your individual church's youth group got to load up on the bus one afternoon out of the week and go swimming at the park. The church leadership had no problem with their kids swimming together, it was just the church camp's policy that the camp pool had to be segregated. The pool was huge, out in broad daylight, had many lifeguards and hundreds of swimmers. I remember many times climbing out of the pool because you couldn't move without bumping into people. The likelyhood of any hanky panky in the pool was extremely remote. But then we also had limits on how short our shorts could be too. The camp guards (all were about 100 years old) carried rulers and made you get on your knees so they could measure from the ground to your hem to make sure they were not too short. You were escorted back to your cabin to change if they were. You had to wear long pants to the services and girls had to wear skirts. Keep in mind, the tabernacle was a pavilion that seated 5000 and had open sides and no air conditioning. The temps in Oklahoma in July and August can easily exceed 100. We actually had kids pass out from the heat during services each day.

 

The rules were the rules and if you wanted to go to camp, you had to follow them regardless of how silly they seemed or whether the staff could even offer a valid explanation for them. That is why I ask specifically why seperate sleeping quarters is such a must in your area?