Need a wee bit of Insight

[Bob White]

Stan,

perhaps if you saw each training course as a puzzle piece. If you change the shape of the piece it will no longer fit to complete the big picture. If every district or council is changing the content of the training is it any wonder there are so many misconceptions as to what scouting is. Continuity is what makes it a program.

 

Bob

[le Voyageur]

Bob

 

Gotta admit you're right about keeping it basic. Kinda thinking about setting it up as a very condensed first year camper program seen at summer camp using the sylabus as the primary focal point. If there's time left over, maybe cover Safe Swim Defense, Safety Afloat, Trek Leader, and Climb on Safety.

 

The big unknown, as always, is the skill levels of one's staff...if they tackle a subject that is outside their experience, they'll only do a poor job of teaching that skill. The goal is to have both the staff, and the students comeing away from a training event feeling very positive about what they have done..it's gotta be a win win for everyone...

 

Without a doubt,the information that has been posted is just great, it'll make the first staff meeting much more productive..many thanks all

 

 

[eisely]

A further comment about the published syllabus. I found the portion of the syllabus for which I was responsible (map & compass and related skills) utterly lacking in detail as to what was to be covered and how to teach it. We have made lots of decisions about what skills to cover and what not to cover. We try to jam as much in as we can in the time allowed, but some lesser topics, such as measuring height and distance get short shrift. It is more important to teach the basics of map reading and compass use to help people find their way.

 

There is also an issue regarding teaching the skill itself and teaching how to teach the skill. While our emphasis has been on teaching the skill, we also try to include suggestions on how to teach.

[FScouter]

When I took the course, it was an overnighter, Friday night and all day Saturday. It that still the case?

[Bob White]

eisely brings up a good point, if the leaders know the skill but do not know how to teach the skill it can be pretty pointless.

We did two things to assist that. First we had every trainer take the Trainer Development BSA 500 course. Then we also drilled into the trainers to use proper instruction techniques for teaching adults. We then had a open discussion at the campfire about how children learn and discussed specific ways that these skills should be taught to scouts. That way it didn't cut into the program time during the day.

 

And yes Fscouter it is still an overnighter. Some go Friday to late Saturday but most the trainers I have tlked to across the country go from early Saturday to late afternoon on Sunday.

 

Bob White

 

 

[Stan Riddle]

Dear Bob,

With all due respect, building upon your analogy, I agree that the "pieces of the puzzle" must fit. But I do think we have some leeway as to how we assemble the puzzle.

 

I certainly don't mean that we should tailor a syllabus to fit our own experiences or opinions, and agree that doing so might be why people are trained so differently.

 

But in every course I've done, there have been questions that were important, but didn't fit the syllabus.

 

Thank you for your comments on the board,

Stan Riddle

[eisely]

This course is designed to be an overnighter. The first time we ran it, we did two nights. The second time we did Saturday night only, and ran a little later into Sunday afternoon. This seemed to work better for everyone, trainees and trainers alike.

[jbroganjr]

A little history... I am finishing up the woodbadge course as we speak, I have been involved with training, cubs and boy scout leaders, run jltc (troop level) and run RT.

My comments are addressed to following the syllabus. You have to keep in mind that any large scale training material that covers an area like the U.S. is going to be designed for the lowest common denominator. With that in mind (and staying to the core principles involved) I see no harm in presenting the material in your own way. For example, I hate, really hate, the video tapes. My staff covers all the material and then some instead of the video tape, for example in skit form, or in round table fashion.

As to the talent level of the participants...why not find out ahead of time???? Tack on a questionaire to the application and review them!!!!

I feel the training curriculum is going in the wrong direction. Bob White, you inadvertently will prove my point with the comment "You need to keep things on schedule if you want to get everything done in time. " The training is set up in a fashion that does not promote mental ownership. The model is to present your objectives, hit those topics (normally throught the worst power point demos I've seen) and then follow up with this is what you learned. The time constraints are an exhibit (IMHO) of the fear of getting off track...when a "good" leader should be able to keep a program on track while allowing "process" to occur. Process has been eliminated and the training has turned into some type of mantra to be chanted three times.

I also agree there is too much show and not enough do. The trianing should follow what we want the boys to do, just on a higher adult level. In their books, rank requirements say things like "show, make, do" not talk about.

We go over too many common sense things (even though I know that common sense aint' too common)

I'd rather spend time watching my participants do, then spend that time making a slick presentation board.

I.E. - at woodbadge (which I feel the curriculum and presentation of the first weekend an almost total failure) all patrols had to attend a presentation on backpacking stoves. Great idea, but no one was allowed to light one...guess what the hardest part of back packing stoves is...lighting it. This is a prime example of the "show" not do...and then expect these leaders who have taken the "elite" training of scouting to go out and what, fail lighting a stove??? I could have gotten the same info presented just by looking at an REI or Campmor catalog.

There is also too much emphasis on scouting is all about leadership...its not, its also about character development. Without character we get strong leaders, some may even say great leaders like Stalin, Hitler, Mao Tse Tong, etc. The next emphasis I have noticed is that scouting is not about the outdoor program, that leadership and scouting occurs without the outdoor program... when the outdoor program is the vehicle used to promote leadership, character, etc.

Now, all the folks in my council who have gone to philmont (venture, District, Boy Scout, cub scout) in all aspects of the training have told me one thing that I find common to correct training...that is to make the syllabus and training your own. That does not mean change it...it means take the latitude to make it "fun" (a word missing in practice from national training) so that your attendees gain "ownership" of the boy scout way.

Please don't start on me about how this national way is the only "right " way. This is a great organization that at times does things extremely dumb. I.E. we used to trench around tents and chop down trees all over the place. In the seventies, camping was eliminated from the program. My point being, the training is training, some good, some o.k. some bad and some disasterous. A good leader questions and does his best to present the best. If you only follow the syllabus to the letter aren't you just being a leadersheep????

[Bob White]

jbroganjr,

 

My comments were directed to the topic at hand, Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills Training, A course that could not possibly have the worst PowerPoints you have ever seen because it has no PowerPoint presentations at all.

 

The bulk of the syllabus is actually found in the Boy Scout Handbook. The entire thrust of this course is to provide hands-on instruction on the outdoor skill requirements of the Tenderfoot, Second Class and First Class Ranks.

 

Eisley makes two interesting comments.

1. You really don't have time to go much beyond the First Class stuff.

2. I found the portion of the syllabus for which I was responsible (map & compass and related skills) utterly lacking in detail as to what was to be covered and how to teach it.

 

You don't have time to to go beyond First Class because you are not suppossed to go beyond First Class.

 

There are little if any directions on how to teach because the trainer is expected to bring that skill with them. That skill is also taught in the Trainer Development/BSA 500 course.

As far as the skill information, the syllabus gives the agenda and the advancement requirement that are to be taught. The details on the skills are in the Boy Scout Handbook.

 

Sticking to the agenda is important because you don't want to send them home without covering the information they cam to get and you cannot run long because that is direspectfull to the applicants time committment.

 

Being able to communicate the information in the time scheduled, is what makes a good trainer a good trainer.

 

Videos and Powerpoints have been made a significant part of some training courses in order to insure that the same information is distrubeted in the same way nationwide. One of the biggest problems in the past has been the vast amount of innaccurate and inconsistent information being given by local trainers over the years. By making the basic training in its current format, information is regulated, training can be packaged for large group, small group and mentoring and independent study, and maintain the consistency of the information.

 

Anyone interested in altering the training program should first attend the Administration of Training course offered at Philmont Training center. A larger view of the training programs and a deeper understanding of training administration should be gotten before you begin changing how you develop leaders.

 

One last thing the skill evaluation that jrbrogan suggested creating already exists in the Intro to Outdoor Leader Skills syllabus.

 

Bob White

(This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[dan]

jbroganjr

where you "involved" with the old worn out tired woodbadge?

I just finished the outdoor part of the NEW BETTER UPDATED Woodbage, and have already been hearing from the old Woodbagers how the old was better are you one of THEM?

So you did not use the videos shame on you when the rocket boy was finsihed a big cheer went up, after the clips from Mr. Holland opus I do not think there was a dry eye in the barn! Glad I wasn't at your "training".

(This message has been edited by dan)

[acco40]

And don't forget to "Remember the Titans." One of the things the the new Woodbadge for the 21st Century" was trying to teach is how to adapt to inevitable change. Some just don't seem to be able to do it.

 

I liked that fact that during my Specific Leader Training portion (Outdoor Essentials) we were put in patrols, and "graduated" from Scout to 1st Class from Friday night to Sunday evening. Not only did it teach us the core (basic outdoor essentials, duh!) but MORE important in my eyes, it showed us how the boys view the program from their perspective. A very valuable lesson. You didn't like all the talk and wanted more hands-on "do"? Well guess what, don't forget that lesson when you are with your troop!!(This message has been edited by acco40)

[dancinfox]

One thing we all have to keep in mind with the new training materials. In the Introduction to Outdoor leader skills, this is a training for leaders to get their youth to First Class, not advanced outdoor skill training. If you read the sylabus, the participant has a sheet that tenderfoot, second class, and first class skills are signed off by the instructor. It is just what it says, an INTRODUCTION TO OUTDOOR LEADER SKILLS. If a leader wants more detailed and advanced training, that is what supplemental training is for. We should not try to add additional skills to the sylabus.

[KoreaScouter]

I understand jbroganjr's frustration with some of the standardized BSA instructional materials. I just finished teaching New Leader Essentials in my area, and found the following:

 

1). It's not a 90-minute program if you cover all the material and let attendees get involved like the lesson plan expects you to. I had to cut off discussions at times, and it still took a shade over two hours. Could have gone for 3 easily. And, I'm not talking about telling "war stories", but answering well-intentioned questions from new leaders about their responsibilities and BSA policies.

 

2). The lesson plan itself needs work. Transitions are awkward, I had to highlight my own slide change markers, and there were actually discrepancies between the information in the lesson plan and the slides. One of the appendices, apparently intended as a handout, was not referenced to a particular presentation. I stuck it in where I thought it fit best. You'll catch it as you review prior to the session, but with the resources at National, these mistakes shouldn't be there when these materials hit the field.

 

3). The slide show format as a .pps file prevents you from producing student notetakers -- unless you do something on your own or they take good notes, they walk away empty-handed.

 

4). I think the GTSS got glossed over in the NLE lesson plan. Compliance with GTSS is one of our biggest problems with new leaders, and we gave it little more than passing mention in my opinion.

 

Personalizing lesson plans is something every instructor should do when they're comfortable with it. That doesn't mean re-write the curriculum, just make it your own...

 

KS

[Bob White]

KoreaScouter,

I have to disagree with you, which as you know is a very rare occurence between you and me.

 

I do agree that NLE is not a 90-minute program. The problem is in the posted time for sessioon-1, it is off by about 30 minutes.

 

But here is where I need to disagree.

in point #1 where you talk about discussions on the their responsibilities and BSA policies, that is not for this part of training. Not that you should ever refuse to answer questions, but they need to be held until after the course. This is a general overview of the history of the BSA, the aims and methods, ages and stages, financing, safety, and the structure of scouting. Other specifics are shared in the Leader Specific training and Youth Protection training. The whole thrust of the training continuum is that needed information is dispersed in small quantities which are focused on the specific job being performed in a graduated format.

 

In point 2, I dont see the transition problems you mention or the handout error. perhaps you could be more specific.

 

The slide show does have some awkward slides. But you need to understand that it was developed to be flexible. The slides are designed to be used as a projected show, to be viewed by an individual during a self taught session, or to be used as presentation notes for a presenter to follow as he or she is viewing the presentation on a laptop.

It is also made to be customized by the district (see point 3). As far as it should be better due to the resources of national...you need to understand what those resources are. The presentation was a compilation of work by a volunteer committee, the Boy Scout Training, the Cub scout Training Division, The Venturing Division and others, each trying to get what they see as the most important information included. This is one of the only courses developed in such a fashion. Others were developed specifically by the volunteers and national division directly related to the topic. Compared to the training resources we had prior to this, what we have now is amazing.

 

3) The NLE PowerPoint is completely adaptable and has all the features available to it of any PowerPoint program. The trick is that you must first save it to your hard drive as a PPT. This will allow you to customize slides to include local information such as council and district maps, substituting local photos, print presentation notes and other nifty PowerPoint features. (to customize a new slide go to your slide viewer and insert a new slide. The new slide will carry the same format as the others including background style, fonts, and colors.)The reason you cannot do that now is that you are running the program off the CD and you cannot alter a program running from the CD until you first save it to the hard drive.

 

Point 4, GTSS was not glossed over if you look at it again. The participants are told it exists and why, they hear some of the key points of Youth Protection, adult responsibilities, and are told to read the pamphlet. During other courses they are given a deeper understanding such as the Sweet 16 of Safety.

 

Finally, if we are to support a national program then it is imperative that the lesson plan not be altered. Trainers however are encouraged to enhance the lesson with their personal training styles and presentation skills in order to maximize communication.

 

Do me a favor and take another look at the course and try the tips I gave you. See if this isn't a better course than you originally evaluated.

 

Thanks,

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)