ODD & Scouting

[Basementdweller]

this could have all been avoided with a little structure for Jr as a two and three year old. Yes including discipline.

[Tampa Turtle]

I don't know enough to say that ODD is just being a bad kid. My oldest has multiple disabilities and can make one tear your hair out. But scouts has been great for him.

 

I agree with eolesen that the parents shouldn't bail--they should be in the area just in case and better yet helping with somebody else's kids. That is what many of the "special needs" parents do since there own kids come with higher overhead they need to pitch in. I found my son was often better with another parent and I found it refreshing to work with boys who were easier to teach--it was a nice change of pace. At the very least they get a good benchmark of what average boys are like.

[ScoutNut]

>>"This scout was "misdiagnosed" as ADHD for a couple of years and medicated (behavior was a little better).">"Now the parents tell us he has Oppositional Defiance Disorder and telling him NO or Don't makes him worse."

[Basementdweller]

Unless the "Experts" come up with a big scientific name then the bad kid just goes home for some structure and discipline and does not come back for repeat visits for $$$$$Pharmacological$$$$$$$$ and $$$$$$$$Therapeutic$$$$$$$$$ treatment

 

 

There is no money in prevention or cure......But tons of money in Treatment.

 

 

My daughter went thru the NO phase.......No I am not going to take a shower, NO I am not going to eat my beans.......Guess what snatching her up and jumping in the shower with her and scrubbing her cured it in two day......No to green beans.......we fixed that in similar fashion.

[Tampa Turtle]

All normal kids go through a no stage; of course they get corrected.

 

Basement, be thankful that you have a child that did respond to discipline and boundaries--it made your life infinitely simpler.

[qwazse]

Okay, use your "nice labels" and when the kid is in Juvie and has nothing better to read the dictionary and look up "oppositional" and "defiant" he'll say "[insert expletive here], so I was a bad kid and they were too chicken to say so!"

 

What you call it doesn't matter. How you handle it does.

 

First step in a cure is recognizing you have a problem. If a kid knows your accepting him (that includes with negative reinforcement where necessary) as he is: bad and all, no whitewashing, he will grow to respect you.

 

The challenge is you have to be very clear to him when he is doing harm to other boys, and as they get older this becomes more ambiguous. (The boys may find their own way of dealing with him, and the results may be less than pleasant.) Get the parents to deal with it if at all possible. If not, you need a dedicated adult to manage that boy.

[Basementdweller]

Being a parent is tough some times.......Many adults just don't have the backbone for it.

 

You are parent first

 

Pal second.....many forget this and end up with the mess they currently in.

 

 

So 40 years ago where were all of these ADD kids?????

[Tampa Turtle]

They were probably around -- there seems to be organic problems with true ADD kids and while you adapt you do not outgrow it. So a lot of them grew up and achieved less than they might have with help. A much higher percentage of kids with ADD/ADHD end up as drop-outs, in prison, or abusing alchohol/drugs. Not all but at 2-3x the average.

 

But yes it is hard to identify with all the other "background noise" of boys coming of age.

 

I know as a parent it has been hard for me to judge when he is having problems he cannot stop vs. "being bad". In our case I know he has been punished many times when he probably couldn't stop what he was doing--even if you held a gun to his head.

 

All this stuff gets pretty complicated as so many kids tend to have multiple issues --i.e. OCD and ADD or Asbergers and ADHD. Even if you can medicate for one condition you might worsen another.

 

I couldn't tell you much about ODD even if it is a real disorder. My plate is full with Tourettes, OCD, Austism, and sensory issues thank you very much. And that is just son#1--who we can't medicate. Seems like a complicated furball and "the experts" (and we have seen some really highly regarded ones)all view the world through their specialty. The "conditions" are pretty arbitrary--maybe in 30 years we will have a better idea. Fat lotta good that will do me and my sons.

 

And it certainly seems that you get more than the average amount in scouting. Oh boy do I know that!

 

To get back to the original issue I will reiterate that the parent needs to help to smooth out the load--though I understand the parental temptation to get a break at the leaders expense. Momleader--is this Tiger, Wolf, or ?

 

My son has sensory issues so some noises, smells, etc really, really irritate him. (Also seems to give him superhuman powers at tracking--he used to guess what his teachers ate for lunch by smelling them from 4 feet away--he was right 4 out 5 times)When he was young he used to get angry and uncontrolled. Now we know either (a) he can tough it out or (b)remove him from it or © mitigate it. So who the heck knows?

 

 

[AnniePoo]

The behavior of the scout in my den with ODD was waaaayyyy beyond just a disobedient child, a kid without limits set by parents, or a severe case of ADHD, etc. I've dealt with a lot of kids with behavior issues in scouting over the years, and this kid was on a seperate level. It was clear to me before I heard of ODD that his kid had a different process going on, and a clearly organic one.

[Lisabob]

My experience with the two ODD kids I've known is similar to what Annie describes. This is not "spoiled kid with ineffective parents," this is "something's up with that one." Actually pretty heartbreaking & exhausting stuff for their parents.

 

Anyway, no, you can't let this one kid make scouting so unpleasant that the other kids/families want to leave, but of course parents shouldn't abandon their little challenge at den meetings, either. Have a heart to heart with parents & come to some agreement on how you (jointly) wish to handle behavioral outbursts, then just do it. No drama, no fuss. If parents can't handle that, then you can tell them your program isn't going to work for them, knowing you've done your best to help and accommodate, but that's really about all you can do.

 

 

[Tampa Turtle]

Ya know sometimes kids react better with other adults than parents--less baggage, different approaches, different hot buttons, not sure how far they can be pushed. Can talk to the parents and use it as an opportunity to experiment with some new strategies on how to deal with their boy--provided they are willing to pitch in.

 

I am always happy to get a tool to use with my boy; plus I am always happy to come home at report to my spouse that "he did great!". It is nice to observe success when you deal with a lot of negative stuff all the time.

 

But if the boy is really that bad and the parents that clueless it is not your responsibility to do it on your own.

[WasE61]

"So 40 years ago where were all of these ADD kids?????"

 

Some were in your classroom...other's were in Special Ed. Others still were in mental institutions, abandoned by their parents.

 

Many were in jail.

 

Other's managed to find a way to cope...usually by self-medicating with "reds".

[DeanRx]

Where were these kids 40 years ago? They were there, just a different label applied to them, I would guess.

 

One of the problems with defining a disorder, is that while it helps to categorize treatment options, it also can have a negative effect on acountability for anti-social symptoms.

 

Just because medicine has defined it, does NOT absolve one from the consequences of the anti-social symptoms.

 

Alcoholics are not absolved from the consequences of drunk driving, nor should they be. Diabetics are not absolved from the consequences of poor diet and blood glucose control. Folks with obesity secondary to a thyroid disfunction are not absolved from the complications of being overwieght.

 

One: you are a volunteer, not a professional. The pros can barely handle kids like this, its more than you should be asked to take on.

 

Two: Parents need to stay for meetings. Even if the kid acts out with parents in attendance, then you and parents need to agree ahead of time, what is the outcome? Remove from the activity for the day? a few minutes? forever? Have this understanding BEFORE the next outburst, so there is no discussion, just action when the need arises.

 

Three: Any threats to others (especially other youth) must be grounds for removal from the program. I know the kid might not be able to help himself, but that does NOT mean the other kids in the unit must be subjected to bullying or physical violence to accomodate one scout's special needs.

 

Best of luck - this is a tough situation with very few easy answers. I don't want to be pessimistic, but I would be surprised if the scout and family stick around in BSA for very long.

[Basementdweller]

So where are all these kids coming from??????

 

again most of the Cub pack has been diagnosed with ADD or are autistic in some measure.....

 

 

Growing up there was none of this....There were always a few special needs kids....In my school of 500 there were about 25 in the class. So about 5%.

 

 

 

 

 

[WasE61]

I don't know if it's the norm or not, but our Cub pack was the ad poster for most of the ADD/ADHD medications. It was 100% chaos, 100% of the time....even with heavy parent involvement.

 

I could only imagine that adding and ODD or OCD to the mix would have made the situation even more unbearable.

 

If the parents aren't there...that's bad. ODD kids can become violent when allowed. I'd say you have to mandate that the parents be there or they need to find another activity for the boy.