CM turned SM vs 14yr BSA Leader

[Starfish2]

To each of the well meaning(and perhaps some not so well meaning)souls,I am the author who initiated the post,above.In less than 24 hours since locating this site,and the incredible responses I have since obtained,I am grateful to those who may be trying to help,however,in order to do so,I am writing to #1.Clarify the questions/misconceptions/confusion, #2 To request in another manner,what I should have initially.

 

I am writing this next sentence as my words of warning.If you chose to read beyond this point,you are making a choice.I will tell you,I am involved in a very long,very complex,very upsetting situation within the BSA organization.I am brand new to this site, and have a long history within the BSA world,primarily at the Cub Level,but some at the Scout Level.I have little computer knowledge but not an enormous amount.I am presenting this information here to the best of my ability,information I am struggling with and am seeking guidance and direction.I need help but I have no idea who can help me.I initially had alternate hopes,that somehow events would cease to occur,however,the oast week has only proved to excell situations.I want to follow sound advise,and I will...however,is the advise being given to me,really and truly the best way...are there alternatives?And most importantly...is there anythng at the BOY SCOUT LEVEL(sorry,not screaming just emphasizing)that can be done,to address the situation and somehow miraculously reinstate my husband and I to our positions and previous roles.If there is a chain of command within the BSA...Id be greatful to know of it,nd also,if there is a dispute resolution process and/or complaint filing procedure.These are my specific questions.If you read on,I am appreciative,but please,I have been tormented enough not just with the situation but in the past day since my previous posting regarding the issue Im involved in.Having said this, either stop reading now,or please do not call me names,threaten me,or do anything more to me to tear me down.I am asking for help,if you can give it,from the bottom if my heart,I truly will be ever greatful.If not...just no more nasty comments...please.I dont deserve it.If this isnt the corrrect forum,again,read no furtehr,redirect me,but I really am begging only for positive solutions.I cant take much more bashing, and I dont deserve it.Yes,I likely will read it,because I am desperate to learn frm this,and if I can make a change that will affectthe gretare good,long term(which inclusdes my 11 yr old...something he desperately wants...not me.him,and I do nt want to take this away from him until he says "Ive had enough too".I havent hade enough,I can hang in there,I will,but only if there is a reason to.If it will help someone else even,I'd do it.But not if Im going to pay a dearer price than I already have,not me and not my husband....SO.HERE you have the additional information and clarification many have requested....

 

 

I am a 48 year old female,mother to 3 children,2 sons, 1 daughter.I joined the BSA in 1999 after being recruited, and assumed the "official"title of TSL in 9/2000.The Pack at the time had 6 leaders.(It was a "defunct" Pack,and 2 gentleman decided to "revive" the Pack,under the same numbers it'd had up until about 20 years before).Before its 'lapse',it was one of the oldest Packs within the BSA,as I understand it.4 women agreed to hold positions,and the 6 of us dedicated leaders-only 1 gentleman having had any previous scouting history(He achieved ES,and decided to rebuild the Troop,as CM).It was with this gentleman and another male friend of his that we came together and initiated the Pack.Other than this 1 man,no other leader had any prior knowledge,instruction or teachings,no experience at all within the BSA. Together we built that Pack.It became a family,and for 6 yrs,it was extremely successful.I remain ever grateful for having had that experience,and see it as perhaps 6 of the best years of my life.We learned together,we struggled together, we laughed together and as corney as Im sure I will be accused of(or referred to as sharing/spreading 'drama'),we cried together.Yes..we cried together-including the 2 men.I have never had a greater respect for any group of people than I still have today,for each of the 5 individuals I served with,the 5 folks (I had the absolute honor of working with side by side with.Each Leader worked with another,we blended,we meshed,if a need was there...it wasn't...because it was filled before it became an issue.These folks worked with me while I was pregnant with my 2 younger children,and in fact would take turns holding babies during large Pack Meetings, when my responsibilities were temporarily redirected from my babies to my older son and my den.I graduated 11 Scouts after they all completed Webelo II ranks..all earned AOL,each bridged together and today,some 14 yrs later,all but 2 remain "friends".I am sure I can speak on behalf of any one of them when I say that we were indeed a family.So,this was my intro to Scouting,and why I felt as I did,and allowed things I probably should not have done.I was constantly recalling the other group I'd worked with(although make no mistake,never,not ever did I say a word to anyone,comparing the 2 very different experiences.I said nothing,but I did always feel a strong commitment to that Pack,the Pack I along with those 5 others,saw grow and become an incredibly strong,amazing BSA Unit.I don't recall ever hearing another Scouting individual ever express a devotion for their group to the extent I felt,and always will feel,to that original group.It was loyalty,compassion,caring,nurturing,laughter....and everything that I think,or thought,a BSA Pack should be.

 

I moved up as Leader of each Den as my son did.It made sense.When my son became a Webelo,the experienced CM, was ready to "move on up" to Boy Scouts with his own son.I agreed to assume the role of CM.What was supposed to be a 1yr term,became 2,as no other parent would agree to step up.I made it understood I would do so only 1 additional yr.If no one agreed,then it was their sons who would pay the price.The pack would cease to continue.s the end of my term approached,1 kind-hearted father(Mr. W.) with minimal experience in BS finally agreed.He was ill prepared, and had no support.I did what I could to assist,however,the parents who remained rallied around 1 outspoken man.

 

Mr.S.

 

Mr. S, a very charismatic individual did possess certain strengths,and in fact I had attempted to recruit him as CM,due to his ability to stand in front of a large group,and actually get folks to listen.He is a gifted Public Speaker,however,he has a variety of motives and issues.After a yr, Mr. W.met with BSA officials,Charter Reps,myself and others...and was given enormous support.It was because of the outpouring of support that he remained in office 1 years,however,after being treated so poorly by so many...he did in fact reign...and left in tears.He and his wife tried so hard,and were completely torn down.Both he and his wife decided to remove their young son from the BS-never to return.

 

I spent 1 yr in a double duty capacity.(Feb 2004, I completed the paperwork for my last Charter, as CM, and also ASM.).I returned to the CS Pack when my middle son turned 6 as(once again, TL to my 6 yr old,and 3 other boys;eventually,3 more boys would joiun our den).I did return to that Pack,knowingly,that Mr S had become CM.While I was certainly aware of his behaviors and personality,I never served "under his direction".Until then.I ran the Den as I did my first son's den, however, while Mr. S was now CM,I had little 1"1 exposure and contact with him...until his own son transferred into my den).from that day on,CM decided to attend each and every Den Meeting with his son,and instead of remaining in either a CM or Parent role,slowly,week by week,he began to "take over"my den.I became ill,and was hospitalized for 2 weeks.Upon my return to my location at the regularly scheduled time...I entered the room to discover Mr S leading the Den.he had a new Assistant, the agenda was set,he had changed the time,contacted all parents...and in that 3rd yr,Mr S became both DL and CM.Done deal,no communication.

 

 

I had a shouting man approach me at a Parade! I was there wearing my class A...because other DE told me and my husband to march wearing our class A's..under the BSA Troop.So the BSA DE's are telling us to do things a certain way,we comply...and as a result,we are then further seen as causing even more issues.When we try to explain-we are not permitted to speak.I tried to speak as I was being yelled at,and in doing so,Mr S Assistant..and I am going to be extremely careful and precise in what occurred....my version yes,but please...read my words before changing them or accusing me of making a false claim...."As Mr. S, was shouting at me,in the presence of other boys and leaders, I attempted to say..'this isn't the time or place'...with that,my right forearm was grabbed by the ASM, and I was pulled across the street-maybe 15 - 20 feet,relocating me to the other side of the road.I was pulled,and a mark was left on my forearm,visible the next day."This is "my version"Does this really an truly constitute an assault?Is there no other option but to file a police report for assault?My gut,my training as a SW...under normal circumstances,I would have liked to sit down and address the actions....with someone from the BSA,to discuss all outstanding issues that led up to it,and resolved it....I wasn't held at gunpoint,my life was not threatened...however...I was embarrassed,humiliated,I felt completely wronged,and not just my feelings were hurt,but I don't really believe that it is appropriate or acceptable for any individual,especially within the BSA,especially a man on a woman,,,I just don't think its ok to put ones hand on another person,and physically remove them from where they are standing-unless their life is at risk(if I were about t be hit by a car).I just do not believe that this is an acceptable practice and I will always believe that the BSA holds some responsibility in ensuring the safety of its Leaders,as well as proper training,to ensure that this type of action doesn't happen again...!Plain and simple.It should not have happened,but I did,and as a result,because I dared to speak up,I have since been told I am no longer even permitted to attend any functions or activities unless I am directly supervising my son as a "Parent",and my presence is 'necessary".Did I sign a police complaint-no.I reported it to the Sr DE(the same DE who told me to show up in Class A and March!),and he covered his eyes.On Friday,I am told..."Even though you have had no Leadership Application on file and have not been named in a charter since 2004 with the BSA,(I did provide Council with current YP certificates for both myself and husband back in early May)Go ahead, show up in class A,march with your family as you always have,its the last time with your Eagle,(my oldest was t deployed 2 days later with the Marines)go out and enjoy the day with the Troop,and do what you have done x13 years of previous parades" And so my husband and I both did.Monday arrives, post parade incident,I report 9am to the BSA office to the same DE the incident and the mark on my arm,and I was told...."You have not had any paperwork filed since 2004,so you are a private citizen..I cant advise you what to do."Yes,I did ask this Sr DE how to file a complaint,and I asked who would represent the BSA...above this Sr DE.I asked for the name,title and contact information as well as the process in which to file a "concern"(that was the word I used).I absolutely positively told this Sr DE that I was verbally confronted,with Mr S shouting at me in front of the boys and Leaders, inthat Mr S was enraged we showed up in Class A and did march with the Troop, and that his actions that his initiation of what I believed was an inappropriate conversation resulted in my being grabbed,pulled across the street,and his full line of vision, while he stood back, allowing another ASL to perform this action,and that after being removed,the 2 men then joined each other,side by side,jabbed one another in the ribs and had a huge belly laugh...SM="too many hens in the hen house"...ASM="you don't discuss that stuff here...its inappropriate,she had no right and I stopped her"(Again...please folks...I did not initiate the conversation!) .

 

Last few facts...unfortunate,but actually the key.Prior to Mr S becoming SM...for 2 yrs,my honored CM served with his son.He retired,and my cousin,a gentleman with many,many years of scout history within his family,became SM,and served a decade.he retired in June 2011.I served under his role,a year+ in Scouts as ASL.he has been myy cousin for 48 yrs,our relationship is blood family.My son requested that this SM, as well as his previous CM(the guy we loved and worked with the 1st 6 yrs),"organize and run"his Court of Honor, held on 1-15-12.This was 100% his decision(and quite frankly...at 18..he wasn't listening to anything mom told him to do.Period.Mom could not have affected any decision this Eagle Scout/Marine made.End of discussion.(I know,because I tried-LOL-nothing mama said at that point was ever heard....typical 18 yr old,he called the shots,made each arrangement and his dad and I were simply "invited guests".He invited all boys and leaders equally.He did not ask Mr S or the CC to be involved(something in our Troop is a given,these 2 guys run ever Court of Honor,and both were angry that they had their toes stepped on,by my son leaving them out of his event.Both men admitted this to me,even stating that they would not attend as guests as they were not wanted.(IEven as I write...I cringe myself at the level of immaturity,the pettiness...the childish behavior...but again,you really can't make this stuff up,I wish I wasn't having to write all of this,but the fact is,it all MATTERS. On 2-1-12,2 weeks later, the recharter was initiated,and the key figures(who my son apparently "highly insulted-that was the words used by the CC when my son went before him and Mr S,to apologize if he didn't do things exactly the "correct way",but he made his decision based upon his longstanding relationships with these men.I give my son credit-he tried to apologize,telling both men the truth,that he that he had received word from his Marine staff here,and that he could be pulled to duty on any day, and because of this,he felt he had to rush things more quickly,instead of taking the extra time,sitting down with both men before asking the others to lead his COH, he said "Im sorry I should have come to you both and explained the reasons for my decisions in my COH. Both men actually refused to accept his apology,and the CC said to him "I cannot accept your apology,it is too little too late",my son extended his hand to shake te CC hand-and the CC walked away,commenting to his son,who was present along with myself,"You know son,the only good Marine is a dead one").No further word,neither leader showed up or called, no congratulations...and no goodbye "Scout",good luck in the Marines(and yes,yes,yes,Mr S is a retired Marine!)When asked by the BSA Senior DE why my husband and I were ommitted from the charter....the CC stated "We just dont feel comfortable with them as Leaders anymore". The CR,when asked,stated "We have too many Leaders (even though the actual # of Leaders has dropped by nearly 50% in the past 5 years, we still have an active 11 yr old son involved,and at least 6 ASL have had their sons graduate and move on..yet they remain because they love what they do-as we also did.Furthermore,we were told(honest to God)that the Troop will STILL CONTINUE to currently accept new Leaders from the graduating Cubs...yup!...Mr S Posse parents.Too many Leadres,yet accepting more.Statements it isnt anything personal....yet less tan 5 minutes later told "We didnt attend your sons COH because we weren't wanted there".Finally..as we were leaving the meeting,walking to our vehicles,I was with my 11 yr old son and 9 yr old daughter,Mr S had his 2 sons,ages 11 and 14 with him.,As we reached our cars,parked within feet of each other(my husband was on the opposite side of the lot and didnt see or witness this part)...I made the comment that I felt this was still very personal,that each time we were told something,a contradiction occurred(too many leaders,but still taking more???),once again,Mr S became enraged at my QUESTIONING HIM".As we walked to our cars,he opened his car door,with 4 kids present,and screamed at me..."YOU ARE A F***ING TROUBLEMAKER!".he slammed the door to his car,opened the car window,peeled out of the lot ....while still screaming from his car.

 

I requested dozens of meetings with Mr S over the years,initially,he responded by stating"What for,will it make a difference its just a waste of time".Later requests,i writing,went unanswered.Upon the Sr DE asking why we were omitted from the charter-after being told 2 different reasons....the SM claimed we failed to show up at meetings from Jan-May.I stated over and over,to no avail,that events were happeninmg but we were not receiving any emails with this info,therefore,we had no knowledge and did not attend.Only after the BSA Commissioner sat and listened,and investigated for himself-was I proved correct.When the recharter occurred,our email was removed from the distribution list(it should have been removed from the Leader list and placed ion the Parent list, yet that never happened).Once the Commissioner actually decided to listen and investigate was my claim substantiated.

 

This is the end of the line,I believe...In trying to correct a situation,and for the way I went about it,because I knew no other way,and because no one,no one was listening....I realize I have secured the fate of both my husband and myself.This past Monday,my husband,me, the CC,Mrs S, the CR and Commisiner sat down with us and formally told us both(this was in fact the very 1st time anyone besides me ever told my husband,no other person had ever told him,and as such,the Sr DE took the position.."Since he wasnt officially told, he should operate as he normally would,its not your position to tell him" My situation is different,as no one ever filed my Applications and added me to any charter since 2004(the Troop did not,as the felt it was an unnecessary expense,to be "dually-chartered",so they left it to the Cubs to file the charter,as my role at that time was primarily with the Cubs)I am exhausted.I am hurt.I am beyond humiliated.I am saddened that I will not have the opportunity to serve as I did my 1st born,Eagle Scout son, with my middle child....my 11 yr old son.I recognize that there is no possibility ever of correcting the situation. For all I did do,whether I always did it fr the boys..or maybe,perhaps I also did it for me..it was an experience and an outlet I found more fulfilling than any other,and to witness my son become an Eagle...yes...the definite reason,ultimately,for why I did what I did,for as long as I did.

 

Is this enough information friends...please?I have tried to give information I believe is significant.Its alot,its enough.To all those who may respond,I remain more grateful than you will ever know..if you have any positive words of wisdom,assurance,anything that can help the situation.If you are going to tell me to stop complaining..I really want to,this has taken a toll,and I reached the end of this battle...but I do so knowing the facts I know...i walk away knowing that a situation remains,one that may have repercussions later down the road for another person...another Leader, another boy..MY SON.I will follow up and would like to...but please,I ask again...dont lead me down a road you would not go down yourself,or for the beloved older Scout Leaders who've been around forever,ask yourself..is this the advice and direction I'd give my daughter for my grandson? I am still proud of my family,our accomplishments and the differences that I will always know,in my heart,I made.I know I did,no one can take that from me.But if there is a way for me to reclaim my name...that'd be an awfully nice benefit.No one deserves to be treated badly...and certainly,not under the enormous name and reputation of the BSA. I've always supported them...however,its the lack of support by the paid staff that I find so hard ti understand,so hurtful and intolerable.Why? Its a question I will never get an answer to,at least I don't think I will...

 

But I can always hope...right?

 

Thank you to you all..again.

Starfish2

[AlamanceScouter]

I am not trying to discount your situation but the only answer is to find a new troop.

[Basementdweller]

For being a 14 year veteran you really have no idea how scouting is structured.....

 

DE's will not give you the best advise.....you speaking with them trying to get the SM, CC and COR in trouble will just piss them off. I have no doubt you will not be welcomed back.....

 

 

I am pretty sure that if you try to sign up with another unit as a leader and they call and check your references with the previous Pack and Troop you will not be welcomed as a leader......

 

 

You really come off just babbling....have you considered getting some medical help??????

 

 

 

[CCbytrickery]

Problem is, we're only getting one side of the story, and some of it just seems...off.

 

Take your son, put him in a different den in a different district. Voila--No more issues with the SM.

 

You need to Step down, do not be involved in scouting right now.

 

You weren't added to the Charter after 2004 (if I'm understanding this correctly)--which I find odd that you let it go this long--my husband and I--and our son--receive registration cards every year after rechartering, and if you weren't receiving the yearly knots or accolades that go along with being a leader---why did you not speak up?

 

Why didn't you ask the other leaders when the meetings were? After a few months of this negative behavior, why didn't you deal with it then? Why did the CC not step up and ask you about missing meetings?

 

We have one DL that I would happily ship off to another Pack--he is too, well, prissy. Doesn't get dirty, doesn't let his stepson get dirty, does camping but sits around watching sporting events on his laptop instead of interacting with the boys, etc. His leading style is definitely different from my husbands--but neither one is 100% right or wrong. But he is mostly effective with his scouts--they are learning what they are supposed to, advancing ontime--so I just let the other stuff go.

 

Perhaps there are too many leaders, or maybe they just didn't like your leading style. Maybe this CM decided that you were not an effective enough leader, and felt he needed to take over the den. Or maybe he's just an ass. Either way, the time to make a fuss about it was then, not now.

 

I still don't see what the Mayor or State senator could do; just that move there makes me go "Are we dealing with a prima donna momma here?".

 

Just stop and let it go.

[CalicoPenn]

I've responded to PM's received by PM. I'll leave that to that.

 

But - I am truly and utterly appalled and disgusted at the comments some of you have made.

 

This is a woman who loves Scouting, has had a very trying experience with the childish garbage some adults like to play, and the frustration was quite evident in her first post. Comments about caps and spacing and the like weren't really helpful - but I guess that happens when people stop being empathetic to their fellow humans.

 

I'm happy to see that some folks made an attempt to read and respond - and yes, the best answer is to find a new troop for her 11-year old son, but that doesn't excuse some of the rudeness that was posted.

 

If you responded, read your post again and reflect on whether you kept the Scout Law in mind at all.

 

Baden - enough with the idiotic "might be a Troll" posts with every new poster - it's tired and makes anything else you post easy to dismiss - you usually have great things to share - stick with that, sir.

 

Some of you really missed the mark (AnniePoo, Seattle, Basement - I'm glaring at you)

 

Seattle - really? You're better than that.

 

AnniePoo - you haven't been here long enough to be snarky - I'm the king of snark and you aren't worthy. If you can't read or understand the post, move on and let those of us with the patience and ability to read it answer.

 

Basement - "You really come off just babbling....have you considered getting some medical help??????" Absolutely beyond the pale - an apology from you is in order.

 

We are here as Scouters and GUESTS of Scouter Terry - he asks but ONE thing from us - to act in a manner consistent with the Scout Oath and Scout Law. Even now, I'm wondering if it's the Scoutlike thing to do to hit enter and post this to the forum - but I've decided, I've done my best to keep my anger at the way some folks have treated this poster under control and believe it's just as Scoutlike to publically call those people out.

[SeattlePioneer]

The original post is unreadable to me --- at least too impenetrable to attempt to parse.

 

Hard to believe that a MSW, a professional trained to be analytical about social situations and to write literate reports on the facts could produce such a post.

 

 

[BadenP]

Calico

 

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

 

You seem to be doing a lot of stone throwing here. The way the post was written initially it looked and sounded like some of those one post wonders of the past who just get a kick stirring things up in here. If she is legit as is the info in her post this forum should be the last place to get advice since her problems are mostly of a legal nature. The best and only solution is to get as far away from that troop as possible.

 

Starfish - If what you have relayed to us is the truth of the situation you have my sympathy. In your boys best interest get out of that troop NOW.

[sst3rd]

Starfish2,

 

I have indeed read your posts.

 

I've been a Scoutmaster of a new community Scout Troop for about two years. The old Troop, of which I was a youth member, I was the Scoutmaster for over 33 years. The sponsor is the church I've belonged to all of my life. Out of no where, the church caved to a loud mouthed parent. The long time COR had no idea how to respond, so he caved. He had no idea how a Scout Troop and sponsor are structured. It was extremely hurtful, but I retired immediately. There had been lots of drama, but I walked away from a Troop very dear to me. And a heavy weight was lifted. After a two year break, my community wanted an "active" Scout Troop. They asked me to help, and off we went.

Walking away from this mess is not giving up. It's lifting a huge weight off of you and your family. It's taking care of you and your family. If you choose to get your son involved in a "real" Scout Troop, he would be able to experience the real Scouting trail. Be strong and move forward and away from this poisonous situation.

 

Take care,

 

sst3rd

[AnniePoo]

She needs feedback, but the only way for her to do that is to put it in a manner that is readable. I really mean that. Ninety percent of people on online forums will not read a wall-o-text such as was in the original post. Thus, if she doesn't calm down and do a rewrite, her message will not reach her intended audience.

 

That's the reality of the internet.

 

 

[Starfish2]

Dear friends...

If I had only known...PLEASE PEOLE,NO MORE FIGHTING..PLEASE.NO MORE NAME CALLING,NASTINESS,CRUEL WORDS..Its not worth it-and neither am I or my issue.I never meant or intended my issue to draw such anger,and fro so many people.Its not worth it,nothing is.Please ,please,I am asking that you all stop...please,I am responsible for WW3...dont do this to one another..it just isnt worth it.Nothing in life is worth getting into internet feuds,name calling, shouting, criticizing,,ect,etc.

 

To the ONE brave soul who had the courageto step forward on my behalf..Sir,I will forevr be in your debt.You did what I couldnt do.I tried though...I wriote individually to each person who posted,I apologized last night.I spent HOURS re-writing because people called me names,they hurt me further questioning my degree,my service within the BSA,they all demanded I rewrite everything the "correct way"...no caps,no long run on paragraphs,etc,etc,.I did everything that was asked of me...and then some.I even went so far as to apologize..Heck folks,didnt anyone read,didnt anyone stop and see that I wrote..."READ NO FURTHER IF YOU CHOSE NOT TO"?

 

I answered every individual question,I clarified,I explained I went above and beyond..as I always do....ALWAYS(Anniepoo,please,please dont try to squirm out of a situation you are stuck in now.It isnt my words that hung you biut your own-heck,you were the #1 person who made me rewrite that entire saga...because I had caps on,and wrote too long,etc etc.To try to slither out of what YOU SAID,by justifying it now...,when called on the carpet..."But she needed the feedback"?? You know I need the feedback-"So where is it?You said it yourself..I needed the feedback...I did all you asked last night and more,yet you criticzed each word again today.You intended and chose your words carefully,you seemed pretty intellegent..but the judgement..well....its ok.,you felt the need to continue,,despit all I have been through,advivce begged formyou felt you knew better what I needed...so you focus on slamming me,embarrasing me furtyher,asking me to rewrote over and over. Its true,but after all I have been through with each of you(not to even mention the BSA Organization!I would simply ask ONE thing of all of you.Please dont insult the many wise folks gathered here because I think most are smarter than me,and will see through you anyway.(after all ANnie,If I can see it..Im pretty darn certain...everyone else can too).For all who chose to criticize,blame my writing,call me names again("troll",question whether I really am a REAL LIVE Social Worker)...to everyone who has the eyes to see things I dont have,the ears to hear what I dont know what to listyen for,and the knowleage to do what needs to be done...I envy you..becauise even after ALL of ghis..I still remain in the dark.Prett sad in my opinion-especially since I would nEVER have believed it,not a BSA website.I can see and accept it from the smal group I am curently living with here...but all of you folks...no way.You are far better than this...you are.Dont call each new person-or anyone else for hat matter,names-its the whole point and reaso I wrote in!Dont criticize...maybe try to put yourself in that new poster's shoes for even 2 minutes,and try,please try..to have a compassionate and kind heart,and dont hurt one another..If there is one thing I learned,all these years in Scouting...it is to help people.That is what I always tried to do,always,no matter what.What makes this website any different?It shouldnt be.Please stop the cruelty,when some one says.."I need help.."please dont question them or make them feel embarrassed further.If they could summon up the courage to ask for help,and you choose o be here..then dont you think you can give them a few minutes...a few minutes of kindness as you respond?It might really make a difference.I needed feedback, and I asked the questions,.I rewrote everything at the request of most of you,but still,no answers.Nothing at all that I can even hope for...Its not supposed to be like this,if I know THAT much after spending 2 days here...I guarantee you all do too.

 

Be nice to each other,it will take you alot further in this world than to the contrary.Its too late for me,but not others.Than you for affording me the time on our website but for those who decided that I am not worthy to ask a few questions...so you decided again to call me names...well,you need not worry,I wont bother any of you again as I wont be returning to a website where I am called names,criticized and verbally abused yet again.Than you for this opportunity,and for the one person who actually did care enough...God bless you!

[Starfish2]

Dear friends...

If I had only known...PLEASE PEOLE,NO MORE FIGHTING..PLEASE.NO MORE NAME CALLING,NASTINESS,CRUEL WORDS..Its not worth it-and neither am I or my issue.I never meant or intended my issue to draw such anger,and fro so many people.Its not worth it,nothing is.Please ,please,I am asking that you all stop...please,I am responsible for WW3...dont do this to one another..it just isnt worth it.Nothing in life is worth getting into internet feuds,name calling, shouting, criticizing,,ect,etc.

 

To the ONE brave soul who had the courageto step forward on my behalf..Sir,I will forevr be in your debt.You did what I couldnt do.I tried though...I wriote individually to each person who posted,I apologized last night.I spent HOURS re-writing because people called me names,they hurt me further questioning my degree,my service within the BSA,they all demanded I rewrite everything the "correct way"...no caps,no long run on paragraphs,etc,etc,.I did everything that was asked of me...and then some.I even went so far as to apologize..Heck folks,didnt anyone read,didnt anyone stop and see that I wrote..."READ NO FURTHER IF YOU CHOSE NOT TO"?

 

I answered every individual question,I clarified,I explained I went above and beyond..as I always do....ALWAYS(Anniepoo,please,please dont try to squirm out of a situation you are stuck in now.It isnt my words that hung you biut your own-heck,you were the #1 person who made me rewrite that entire saga...because I had caps on,and wrote too long,etc etc.To try to slither out of what YOU SAID,by justifying it now...,when called on the carpet..."But she needed the feedback"?? You know I need the feedback-"So where is it?You said it yourself..I needed the feedback...I did all you asked last night and more,yet you criticzed each word again today.You intended and chose your words carefully,you seemed pretty intellegent..but the judgement..well....its ok.,you felt the need to continue,,despit all I have been through,advivce begged formyou felt you knew better what I needed...so you focus on slamming me,embarrasing me furtyher,asking me to rewrote over and over. Its true,but after all I have been through with each of you(not to even mention the BSA Organization!I would simply ask ONE thing of all of you.Please dont insult the many wise folks gathered here because I think most are smarter than me,and will see through you anyway.(after all ANnie,If I can see it..Im pretty darn certain...everyone else can too).For all who chose to criticize,blame my writing,call me names again("troll",question whether I really am a REAL LIVE Social Worker)...to everyone who has the eyes to see things I dont have,the ears to hear what I dont know what to listyen for,and the knowleage to do what needs to be done...I envy you..becauise even after ALL of ghis..I still remain in the dark.Prett sad in my opinion-especially since I would nEVER have believed it,not a BSA website.I can see and accept it from the smal group I am curently living with here...but all of you folks...no way.You are far better than this...you are.Dont call each new person-or anyone else for hat matter,names-its the whole point and reaso I wrote in!Dont criticize...maybe try to put yourself in that new poster's shoes for even 2 minutes,and try,please try..to have a compassionate and kind heart,and dont hurt one another..If there is one thing I learned,all these years in Scouting...it is to help people.That is what I always tried to do,always,no matter what.What makes this website any different?It shouldnt be.Please stop the cruelty,when some one says.."I need help.."please dont question them or make them feel embarrassed further.If they could summon up the courage to ask for help,and you choose o be here..then dont you think you can give them a few minutes...a few minutes of kindness as you respond?It might really make a difference.I needed feedback, and I asked the questions,.I rewrote everything at the request of most of you,but still,no answers.Nothing at all that I can even hope for...Its not supposed to be like this,if I know THAT much after spending 2 days here...I guarantee you all do too.

 

Be nice to each other,it will take you alot further in this world than to the contrary.Its too late for me,but not others.Than you for affording me the time on our website but for those who decided that I am not worthy to ask a few questions...so you decided again to call me names...well,you need not worry,I wont bother any of you again as I wont be returning to a website where I am called names,criticized and verbally abused yet again.Than you for this opportunity,and for the one person who actually did care enough...God bless you!

[Starfish2]

P.S.Years ago, when I was in college,a Sociology teacher I had ordered the class to read a book.It was called, "Everything I needed to Know,I Learned in Kindergarten".While it sure as heck wont help much with computers,literacy in writing,caps or run on sentences...it might just remind us all,of what we are here to do,and how to do it.

 

Blessings to all,and thanks for this opportunity.I promise not to trouble you folks every again.Thank you for your willingness..

 

Starfish2

[ScoutNut]

As another mentioned, I am rather amazed that after 14 years of leadership in the BSA you have no clue as to how the organization is put together.

 

Have you never taken any training at all? Have you never read any BSA literature?

 

Oh, well, water, bridge, that sort of thing.

 

Here is a quick/dirty wrap-up of how the BSA is organized -

 

The BSA National organization is made up of 4 Regions, with 33 areas. The National offices are in Irving, Texas.

 

BSA National grants two types of charters. The first is a charter to create a local council. The second type of charter is to local organizations (church, school group, civic organization,etc).

 

The second type of charter is based on recommendations from the local council. These charters give the local organizations the right to use the BSA Scouting programs as "outreach" programs for their youth.

 

NOTE - This is the important part -

 

The local Chartered Organizations are "OWNER-OPERATORS" of their Scouting programs. In other words the Charter Organization OWNS each of the BSA units (Pack/Troop/Team/Crew/Ship) chartered to it.

 

BSA might own the programs, and give help and support, but the Charter Organization (CO) owns the unit itself.

 

Barring a youth protection issue brought out by the background check preformed by National, the CO has the ultimate say so on WHO the members of it's units are, and WHO it's leaders are. Sometimes, even if the background check has turned up something, if a CO goes to bat for the leader, they often will get their volunteer of choice registered with BSA.

 

The Charter Organization Representative (COR) is, as the title suggests, the representative of the CO. The COR represents the CO's interests to it's units, and to the local council, and district.

 

Bottom line, you were complaining to folks who had NO SAY SO AT ALL on whether or not you and your husband were kept as leaders in your CO's Pack and Troop.

 

Your District Executive (DE), and Sr DE, can NOT tell your CO either to kick you out, or to bring you back. They had NO AUTHORITY to tell you and your husband to march in that parade as leaders.

 

Complaining to your Mayor, and NJ Senator, was just plain silly, and a waste of your (and their) time, because neither of them have anything at all to do with BSA, or your Charter Organization, and cannot impact the decisions of either organization.

 

 

Way back, 6+ years ago, when the SM started insulting, and harassing you, you should have gone first to talk to your COR. If that produced no results, you should have next gone to talk to the head (IH) of your Chartering Organization.

 

The IH, and the COR, are the ONLY two folks who have the say as to who is, and is not a leader in their units.

 

 

As to the grab/drag/bruising parade incident, that also should have been immediately reported to your COR, and/or IH. After that it was up to you if you wanted to file charges against any of the parties involved (SM, ASM, CO, parade organizers, etc).

 

Now, since your Chartering Organization, and it's COR, are backing up the SM, it is a bit to late to get back to being a leader with these units.

 

But, good grief, why on earth would you want to!?

 

Stop calling your Mayor, Senators, DE's, SE's, etc..

 

Cut your losses.

 

Find a GOOD Troop for your younger son to join, and forget all about this toxic one.

 

[Kristian]

never be surprised by the conduct of one scouter to another. bsa really does tolerate some horrendous conduct directed from adults to adults and few who really have the power to at least attempt to right the wrongs are willing to put the effort in and make it work. even as we see on this board some of the conduct shown ....... well, at least the scouts themselves are never that bad. honestly that's the main thing that kept me on for years despite constant harassment by other adult leaders.

 

in situations such as these, i know its sad but it might be best to cut the losses and find another or form another troop. its impossible to continue without the support of the cor as others have also stated. i believe we got at least 1-2 families a year transferring troops because of bad situations, most of which weren't this bad.

 

as for the injury you received, im pretty sure that's more battery than assault and you can always try pursuing either criminal or civil charges. there are actual rules he did violate in the this act and they are listed in the code of ethics which considering fact this document also talks about things like membership fraud should give you the indication bsa buries these types of issues. i can guarantee if you pursue this route you might win the case but the council will truly hate you and you will never get their support for anything ever again.

[shortridge]

What ScoutNut said. As I said on the first page, these types of membership decisions are the CO's call, not the council's. Find a new troop for your son, and walk away yourself for at least a few years.

 

If your emotions are as raw and painful as they come across, you may want to consider talking with a professional counselor. Write a list, too, of the good things about your Scouting journey, to help balance this negativity.

 

I would also observe that if you try to find a troop where you can volunteer, you may have some difficulty. Youlikely now have a reputation, deserved or not, among other people in your district, as a "troublemaker," to use the SM's words you quoted him as saying. Fair or not, that's how a community works. Word gets around, and if units can bypass someone around whom drama appears to swirl, they will.

 

As for the arm-grabbing incident, unless you took photographs of the bruise and have eyewitnesses who will support your version, that is a lost cause.