Archery and bb

[Brewmeister]

Archery and bb are not allowed "at the pack level" and how both can be done as a scouting organized event is laid out in the guide.

 

Ok, so two questions.

 

1. Actual example: A local nature center holds a event open to the general public and your pack attends as an outing. At the event are many displays and activities, including a local sporting club that is duly trained etc. that has a display where anyone can come up and shoot. Are the scouts allowed to do so? It does not appear to be but it's a tough one to enforce when their non Scout friends are there; mom and dad and sister head on over, etc.

 

2. Hyothetical example: Taken to the next level, the same club wants to hold an event on its property for your pack, so the pack is not involved at all in arranging, organizing, etc. It does not appear to be allowed. Correct?

[RememberSchiff]

My cubs would be doing 1 and 2 safely and having FUN.

 

As a pack, we safely do shooting sports outside of scouting. Ditto with the troop which attended a CMP class. Never had a safety issue as none of the NRA or USA Archery instructors or our unit leaders would stand for any nonsense on the range.

 

When other kids are safely doing activities which parents and adult leaders approve but National prohibits, we lose the whole scout family and worsen our chances of attracting more boys to scouting.

 

My $0.02,(This message has been edited by RememberSchiff)

[Brewmeister]

When other kids are safely doing activities which parents and adult leaders approve but National prohibits, we lose the whole scout family and worsen our chances of attracting more boys to scouting.

 

This is what I am running up against.

 

Let me tell you, we already have several Webelos who are shooting 12 gauge shotguns in DNR-approved "learn to hunt" programs with a mentor, as well as completing in youth trap leagues. So yeah, they're already pretty bored with the single-pump BB guns at council camp and whatnot.

[RememberSchiff]

I hear ya.

 

We have some Webs shooting 12 gauge semi's on a local ATA trap team. A few hunt turkey with their dads. We have Cubs who own and shoot their own 22 rifles (Cricket, Mini Bolt 14, CZ). BB at camp is a yawner, they would rather be back swimming at the waterfront.

 

[perdidochas]

Neither of those are Scouting organized events. IMHO, you couldn't lead the Pack as a whole to shoot, but I can't see why parents can't take their kids to shoot.

 

That said, nobody can get beltloops for the above either.

 

In terms of the Webelos already shooting shotguns, well, that's a family thing, not a Scout thing. There are always going to be family things that Scouts can't do as Scouts. Scouting is not primarily about shooting. If you want that, join a gun club.

[Brewmeister]

I understand that, and I also understand the reasons for it because they are specialized activities and Cub Scouts is a broad-based program.

 

However, ask families and scouts "What do you want to do for activities," and here's what you will get:

 

"Let's go bb shooting, I have a big back yard."

"Let's do archery, my club will put on a program."

"Let's go canoeing on the lake."

"Let's go to that place that offers rafting on the river, it's a blast."

 

By the fourth "we can't do that" it gets a little frustrating.

[Oak Tree]

Yeah, our pack would have been ok with both examples in the original post. The first one (shooting when everyone else is) I don't think we would have thought twice about.

 

For the second one, I think that having a shooting club set up the range and the rules, that's pretty much equivalent to having the council do it.

 

Now, if you are reading the G2SS literally, you're right, I think you'd decide that they aren't allowed.

 

As for your four examples later, I think we could actually manage to do most of those in some fashion or another.

 

"Let's go bb shooting, I have a big back yard." This one would be the hardest, as it seems to be expressly denied. However, if you get some adults to take the council shooting sports training (and for our council, the guy came to our CO and put on a program one Saturday morning.) The council actually loaned us BB guns. If the backyard is big enough and safe enough that you can set up a real range and follow all the rules, you might be able to get it to be a council-approved activity.

 

"Let's do archery, my club will put on a program." I think that the archery clubs have rules very much in line with what the BSA has. I'm always comfortable allowing professionals to run things.

 

"Let's go canoeing on the lake." For this one, we might say that we're doing a day at the state park. There will be some family free time involved. Families who want to go canoeing can.

 

"Let's go to that place that offers rafting on the river, it's a blast." Again, we might do this on a camping trip, with family free time.

 

The primary rule for the top two is that you make sure you have official competent supervision. For the next two, you make it clear that parents are responsible for their own families.

 

Our district actually put on one event at a park where families could take out the park boats, so I know they viewed that as ok.

 

If you wanted to be really correct, you could always talk to someone (DE or someone else) at the council office, and get their stamp of approval.

[Nike]

For your perusal:

 

Cub Scouting Standards

Cub Scouts are permitted to participate only in the fol- lowing shooting activities.

Archery and BB gun shooting are restricted to day camps, Cub Scout/Webelos Scout resident camps, council- managed family camping programs, or to council activities where there are properly trained supervisors and all stan- dards for BSA shooting sports are enforced. Archery and BB gun shooting are not to be done at the pack level.

Tiger Cubs, Wolf Cub Scouts, and Bear Cub Scouts are not permitted to use any other type of pistol or firearm, including pellet guns.

Webelos Scouts are permitted to use air rifles at Webelos resident camp in accordance to BSA national standards for resident camp.

 

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34416.pdf

This version had the Jan 2012 updates.

 

 

It's never fun to say no. Having that fantastic chart that shows age appropriateness of activities overed in G2SS is very helpful at planning meetings.

[perdidochas]

Brew,

 

I understand your frustration, but you have to remember G2SS is for all scouts, not just for those in more outdoorsy areas. In the pack my boys were in, the rules in terms of shooting were reasonable. We live on the coast, IMHO, the boating rules are too restrictive. If we were landlocked, I would think otherwise. That said, overall, they are reasonable, but on the restrictive side.

[AlamanceScouter]

I say don't do it unless it complies with BSA standards. If you are doing things within the rules and somebody gets hurt then "it is what it is". If you are doing something outside the lines and somebody gets hurt......somebody and/or the organization is going to go down.

[Brewmeister]

Ther discussion of the merits of the rules have taken us away from the original questions I had. The rules are what they are and we accept that with the program going in.

 

In my opinion the answer to the first one is that it is ok because the pack did not organize the event and it is not a shooting event per se, it is an outdoor event that happened to have that, and the boys are under the direction of their families. It is also open to the public and run by another entity.

 

The second one is not ok because it is a pack level event that is not open to the public.

 

If you agree or disagree please let me know why.

[SSScout]

Here we go again...

 

The G2SS is fairly specific about what Scout Units SHOULD and SHOULD NOT do. Doesn't say a thing about what a family and it's boys can/cannot/should/ought/must/might do.

 

If the parents are comfortable with Johnny firing a 12 gauge on Uncle Grayson's farm, hope they have fun. But the Troop shouldn't be the sponsor of that activity.

 

If the Wasnofsky family has a big backyard, and they like plinking soda cans (almost said tin, but they aren't made of tin any more)with a BBgun, hey, have fun, but the Cub Pack should not sponsor that activity, even if they have Mr. Daisy RedRider himself there.

 

If the Izacc Walton League chapter invites the Troop to come up and participate in an NRA certified Rifle and Shotgun MeritBadge day, it might be a good idea to have the Council Shooting Sports Committee (you do have one of those, don't you?) certify the opportunity for Scout participation.

But the Troop cannot , by itself, do so, IF IT WANTS TO FOLLOW THE RULES.

 

The private shooting club can invite whomever they wish to their property, but it cannot , shouldnot ,on face, be considered a Scout activity.

 

Our Troop camped at an out of Council Scout Camp and wanted to use their Archery Range. This would be allowed IF we had an Archery RO with us. Unfortunately, my cert was two years out of date, so I could not serve in that capacity . Sorry, boys, gotta do more other stuff.

[Brewmeister]

So, SSScout, you are agreeing with my conclusion then?

[Nike]

#1. If you are there on an official Den or Pack field trip, no. You are engaged in a group activity and presenting yourselves as Cub Scouts. The event is not sanctioned by the local council.

 

#2. Unless you have permission from council and a certified CS range officer, no. All the specified events where Cubs can shoot the bows and BB guns to which they are limited are council events or council sanctioned district events.

[SSScout]

Brewmeister:

 

Ja,, stimmt das.