Tiger Den confusion/lack of support

[jazzjeff]

Hi everyone!

 

I am new to the site and I thought I posted this already but I don't see it anywhere yet, so here it goes again! I am a new Tiger Den Leader this year, and have never had any experience with scouting at all so this is entirely new to me. I have twin boys who are in the den and they love it, so I am happy they are intrested in scouting and everthing it has to offer them.

 

I am not sure if all the packs are like this, but my training has consisted of whatever is online, and the giant leaders manual, and the Tiger handbook and then I have been on my own. I don't seem to have alot of support from either the parents or other leadership in the pack. I have had to organize and run every den meeting, go see it, track achievements (I fianlly found the tiger trax spreadsheet in December. I was under the impression that the tiger year was a cooperation among all the parents. I have asked for help running den meetings from parents and get no reply. I sent out a snack rotation sheet that is ignored. We did our scouting for food this weekend and each scout had to drop bags off to an assigned route..well 2 of my scouts did not participate and it left me and my twins to deliver the 2 that didn't participate.

 

The assistant CM came to my first den meeting and then I have had no help since, except when they were looking for donations to the council. I guess I am overwhelmed, constantly worrying if I am doing the right things and hoping the boys enjoy it. I am frustrated by a lack of support from parents and other leaders and am close to quitting. I was never invited to the first or second leaders meeting, then the third was out of town on a pack trip and not one of them attempted to pull me in the loop or keep me up to date so I feel very isolated and on my own so to speak. I am not sure how to pull myself out of this, and I have to keep reminding myself that this is about the kids and not the grownups. Grrr (my best tiger growl haha)

 

Any suggestions how to handle this? I am at my wits end and it is only my first year. Thank you!

[Scoutfish]

Welcome to scouting!

 

So, it sounds like you are experiemcing a "normal" Tiger leader year.

 

It's normal, but that don't make it completely right.

 

Your Cm or CC should be willing to help you out. Granted, they can't always be at every meeting or stay the entire time when they are there, but they should be able to help you some.

 

As for the parents: This is the Tiger year. They HAVE to be there. They are an adult partner to the Tiger Cub. Sure, this does not mean they have to bring cookies and milk, but it does mean they have to be there helping with their Tiger Cub.

 

Now, you have to remember, you are a volunteer and even though it may not feel like it, you are greatly appreciated for VOLUNTEERING your time - even if it's not from your den or pack.

 

So, as a volunteer, trhere is no law saying you have to put up with un neccesary crap from parents or the pack. You do not owe them your unending time.

 

Next meeting, tell the parents that if they do not do something to help out, that it will all end . If they do not help out and participate, they can take over because you will be going elsewhere.

 

You may have read or noticed that in the older dens, there areregistered Den Leaders ( DL's) and registered Assistant Den Leaders ( ADL's). Well, in Tigers, you do not have that because ALL parents are ADL's to the DL.

 

As for snacks, we dropped that fom our planning because each family had a different routine. Some cubs had a snack right before the den meetings, some would have it after. Some of the boys already ate supper or were suppose to right after and the parents didn't want to spoil their appertite.

 

I'd just tell every family that there will be a break at "X" o'clock and they can have whatever it is trhey bring - if they want to bring it. If not, it can be a 2 or 3 minute rest.

 

 

So, long story short: put on your mean game face and let them know how it's going to be.\ from now on!

 

Don't ask...tell them!

 

Good Luck!

 

[Outdoors]

It is too bad you are getting no support from the pack. Particularly at the leaders meeting, w/o a den representative there the communication between den and pack will break down. But you can not control what the Pack leaders do. You can control what your den does and I do think the success comes mainly at the den level and not the pack level since most things are done by den and not pack. Let me share my experiences as a Tiger den leader last year (2010-2011).

 

First I do have a scouting background although the Tiger program did not exist when I was in. I did have a bit of an advantage to all the scoutcraft things, but you definitely do NOT need to have been a scout to have or learn those skills. And in the Tiger program that is definitely not required anyway.

 

As far as training, all I had is exactly what you had. Whatever I could find online and then I bought all the books from the scout shop.

 

Tigers is supposed to be shared leadership where a different parent takes over all the meetings each month. If you have a good set of parents, your job as a Tiger leader is to just make sure someone has each month, goto the leaders meeting, and keep track of completed achievements. And then sit back and be a tiger parent.

 

Our plan as a den was to have 2 den meetings a month, one go-see-it plus the pack meeting. One den meeting is the den activity achievement and the other den meeting is something fun. That worked out great as it was 5 months before Blue and Gold. I handled October and then wanted parents to fill in for each Month from November on through June. At first I asked at meetings, I emailed, I asked again, I emailed again and I think I had one parent (of 8 of us) to step up and offer to do a month. So one meeting I stood up and said, "Thank you Mr. Smith for organizing the meetings and go-see-it for November. Here is a sign-up sheet that I need EVERYONE to sign up for one month. Neither Myself nor Mr. Smith will be running any more months but I will support you in every way I possibly can. Thank you." Then I set the paper down on the table with a pen and by the end of the meeting EVERY parent signed up for one month. Most had their own ideas for meetings a few did not. For those I gave them a bunch of ideas and let them choose what to do.

 

And we had an AWESOME year, could not have possibly worked out better. Each parent took up their month, the first few got to pick from which tiger achievement to do and leverage from their personal background, interests, and skills and do something different. That keeps the program varied as each month the boys get a slightly different set of activities.

 

We started with 7 boys, word spread at school and an 8th joined and then everyone returned for the next year as Wolves and we picked up 5 more. I think many were a bit timid at first to sign up for a month. Remember, it is new to everyone and nobody really knows what is going on unless they have an older boy who already went through the program. So everyone is kinda standing back waiting to see what happens. I have found that email requests are usually ignored, asking at meetings is to, but when I slapped that paper down on the table and pretty much said I expected everyone to sign up, they did.

 

If that does not work, another idea is to go up to each parent one by one, look them in the eye and say, "I have put you down for May to plan and run all the meetings. Do you need some ideas on what to do?" They would have to be a real !@#$% to not do it then.

 

But I think most want to, just might need a gentle push in that direction.

 

That is my $.02. If the Pack Leaders do not support you (I was lucky there, mine did) then there is probably nothing you can do. Just run your den as best as possible. If the Pack is not doing many activities as a pack, then just plan them yourself and invite the other dens.

 

The Tiger year is supposed to be enjoyable for your son, but also for you as it is a journey you and your son take together. If you are getting stressed out, getting no help, becoming frustrated and discouraged than your son may start to pick up on that and what he gets out of the program will suffer. If that happens you'll have a tough decision to make - maybe join another pack if that is an option. But if you are really enjoying it then your son will even more. I found that getting the parents involved kept the boys involved and engaged. One other thing I did was to have a denner system that was tied to the shared leadership. Whichever parent had the month, their son was the denner. And they had 2 responsibilities to do. They had to take home the den flag and make sure to keep it in a safe place, take care of it, and bring it back to the next meeting. They also led the den in the opening and closing Pledge, Law, and Promise. Plus they got to wear the yellow denner cords - that was a hit. Then every boy wants to be the denner but they can't be a denner if their parent is not a leader for the month. Parents have tougher time saying no to their son So you could just try that, announce a denner system that is tied to the shared leadership. Have the current month's boy get to show what he gets to do, think of something else fun. Maybe he also gets to pick a game to play, help run the meetings, give the denner some responsibility and say over what the den does. The other boys will want to do it to, so their parents will have their hand forced w/o you making any demands.

 

Good luck

 

 

 

 

 

[AKdenldr]

lisawe1215,

 

Well you didn't say how many tiger boys you have, but I hope you don't quit. It is really fun and rewarding, sounds like things just got off to a rough start that can be corrected!

 

Call up the CC/CM and tell them you need more support now. Make them meet you for coffee or lunch and go over your concerns. Get the schedule for the leader meeting. Get some mentoring (usually the Bear and Wolf leaders do this in our pack for the tiger leader.) If they can't help you with this, you do need to move on to another Pack. (They can help you brainstorm how to set up, etc, usually they can't attend the meetings.)

 

Cancel the next tiger meeting and have a parent meeting in the place of the meeting to set expectations with the parents.

 

Look for someone willing to be a registered, and trained, assistant den leader next school year. If no ADL, no wolf den.

 

Sounds like emails or written word is not working for these parents. Use phone calls and in person conversations until those communications are working. Make it clear that when they get an email or call from you you need them to communicate back.

 

It might be that once this framework is up and running you will be a happy leader! But if not, move on.

 

-- AK

 

[AKdenldr]

I forgot to say, 'welcome and you came to the right place!'

 

[SeattlePioneer]

You can't do better than the "Outdoors" post.

 

Getting new Tiger Cub Dens started WELL is a challenge every pack faces every year, and too often it doesn't go well.

 

As a district leader, I organize our Tiger Cub summer camp, which is for two evenings and one afternoon along with the Cub Scout Day Camp.

 

My main purposes are to show parents and Tiger Cubs what a quality Tiger Cub program looks like and feels like, with the hope that parents will go on to replicate that in their packs.

 

Last summer I had twelve boys and their Tiger Cub partner in the camp. The first thing we did was to allow boys to choose which of two dens they wanted to be in --- I was lucky and had two dens of six each.

 

I immediately appointed two interested parents to be den leaders for each of the six boy dens. During the evening, each den made their own den flag and had a den cheer, and each den had a specific name (Saber Tooth Tigers --always popular). We'd had a couple of competitions between the two dens which began sparking pride. Parents of course help with the den yell and such too.

 

The second day I also had different parents agree to be den leaders.

 

The third day, afternoon with the Cub Scout Day Camp, one den had no parent volunteer to be den leader for the day.

 

I said, "That's too bad. We are ready to go and shoot BB guns but we can't do that without a Den Leader. Ten seconds later, I had the needed den leader.

 

So one key is to have activities the boys and parents really want to do. And parents really need to have a role in Tiger Cub activities. They should be MEANINGFUL partners, their presence and help obviously necessary. Competitions with Tiger Cubs and their parents competing against others is a good strategy.

 

Usually the smart move is to ask a specific person to do the task you need done, rather than asking people to volunteer. I'd offer people some choices about what you need done and listen carefully if they refuse. A good reason for refusing would have me offering another task to do in most cases.

 

I might make it clear that helping the den is a condition of den membership. I would consider suspending or dropping someone if the parent wont help for no good reason.

 

Unfortunately, there are plenty of Tiger Cub Dens where the Den Leader hasn't mastered the art of shared leadership.

[drmbear]

We were moving and in transaction, so we didn't get started with our Pack until the end of January, and by then there was only one other Tiger and the den leader. Even though I am an Eagle, I knew nothing about Cub Scouts, so I didn't even try to get involved as a leader. I ended up the Wolf DL the next year, and by late spring I was the CM as well. My first year as CM, I put the Tiger parents that decided to be DL's through the same kind of things you are experiencing now. No one liked it, and it wasn't right

 

My second year I did something very different. Although I work with my son's den as a Webelos Den Leader and serve as CM, I decided it was more important to work with the Tigers to get things going right. I got other Web parents to step up, and for the first 3 or 4 meetings after our fall Join Scouting Night I was the acting Tiger Den Leader. I think this worked amazingly well, since the Tiger Den is supposed to work on a shared leadership concept, and I could get that working right from the beginning. They knew that I wouldn't be staying long term and would have to take over. They knew they could do this because I had different ones take the meeting plans right out of the book, and three different parents ran those three meetings after the first one I did. Tiger den can be so very much fun, and I was completely nuts with them, knew all their names, and they had a personal connection to me in connection to the whole pack. The parents were all eager to help, got involved, and created the rest of the Tiger year. By the time I got back to my Web. I den, the boys all had Citizenship Activity Badge, so those parents stepped up as well, even registering as den leaders. It's been a great year, and I know I will do it all again this year. I may even continue to do it after I'm a Boy Scout leader in my son's troop, because it is so much fun, and because it is so vitally important to new Scouts and their parents as they kick off this journey, and just as an act of service. I hope I'll have the time to do it.

[SeattlePioneer]

My experience is that it's a mistake to be a Cubmaster and Den Leader both. You need enough detachment to be able to observe dens for problems and to be available to help if help is needed or you see problems.

 

After spring recruiting April 3rd, I'll be forming a Bobcat Den of most newly recruited boys and families. The idea is to show boys and parents what a quality program should look like and feel like, and it gives me the opportunity to size up new parents for leadership positions. We also will complete the Bobcat requirements in time for all Cub Scouts to form their new dens for next school year at our early June overnight camp.

[ScoutNut]

lisawe1215 - you don't say how your Tiger meetings are run.

 

Do you insist that the Adult Partners attend with their Tiger?

 

Do you treat the Tiger and his Adult Partner as a Team, and have the Partner do everything (and I DO mean everything!) with their Tiger?

 

Are the Partners having as much fun as their Tigers?

 

I agree with assigning a specific requirement/elective/outing to a specific Tiger Team. Talk to them (the team of Tiger and his Partner) face-to-face about it and offer any help they need. However, make it clear that they (Tiger and Partner BOTH) are in charge and will run the meeting.

 

Drop the snacks. Water is about all that is really needed.

 

Don't worry about doing things "right". Read through the Tiger Handbook. It is really the best source of information on the Tiger program.

 

By now all of your Teams should have completed, and received their Bobcat award, their Tiger Totem, and most (if not all) of their Tiger requirement beads. Work on award requirements, electives, and other misc FUN things.

 

The Tiger level is supposed to be a FUN introduction to Scouting. Tigers and their parents should be having FUN while learning about Scouting, the Pack, and a bit about the world around them.

 

As for your interaction with the rest of the Pack, and it's leaders -

 

You say you were not "invited" to the first or second Pack Leaders Meeting. You also said that the third Pack Leaders Meeting was held while everyone was off on a Pack trip. I am a bit confused. The date/time/place of the monthly Pack Leaders Meetings are usually fairly well publicized (in the Pack calendar). Pack leaders (which includes all den leaders) don't need to be "invited" to these meetings. They are just expected to be there. It also seems rather counter-productive to schedule a meeting for all of the Pack's leaders for a time when many/most of them would be out of town on a Pack trip.

 

Have you attended any of the other monthly Pack Leaders Meetings (meetings #4/Dec thru #7/March)? How do you find out what is needed for the month's Pack meeting? How do you turn in the list of things that your Tigers have completed during the month and need to be recognized for at the Pack meeting?

 

At this point I recommend you stop waiting for them to come to you. Stop waiting to be "invited". Seek out the help and information you need, yourself. Call the Cubmaster and ask for a schedule of Leaders Meetings. Ask about the next Pack meeting and what, if anything, your den needs to do to help/prepare for it. Ask for the contact information for any former Tiger den leaders (current Wolf, Bear dens), then give these folks a call and ask them out for a cuppa at your local coffee spot to pick their collective brains on ideas you can use on your den.

 

Good Luck - Have FUN - and remember - Tigers are G-R-R-R-R-R-E-A-T !!!

[SeattlePioneer]

Getting new Tiger Cub Dens started and started effectively every year is a key pack leadership responsibility, but there is no special training in how to do that.

 

Too often the job is done poorly, and you have new adult leaders like the one starting this thread having a tough time, or the Tiger Cub Den never getting started or dissolving.

 

We really need to do a better job at that. Many good ideas are discussed in this thread, but these kinds of issues should be dealt with in September, or even April or May when new Kindergarteners are initially recruited.

 

This is not something National addresses either in training or program guides. It's a big hole in the Cub Scout program, in my opinion.

 

I've described my own solutions:

 

1. Spring recruiting and forming a Bobcat den of new Cub Scouts and parents to get new families started in Cub Scouts right

 

2. Tiger Cub Camp twinned with Cub Scout daycamp to again provide new Tiger Cubs and Tiger Cub Partners with an example of what a quality Tiger Cub Program looks like, feels like and how to make it work.

 

3. Tiger Cub Den Leader training offered during the summer to prepare newly recruited Tiger Cub partners to assume Tiger Cub Den Leader positions or to help make their Tiger Cub Den work.

 

My aim is to have those new Tiger Cub Dens up and ready to go in September with a quality program.

 

That doesn't mean that's easy or will work all the time, or that my methods are the only way to go ---they aren't. But we need to do a better job of getting those new Tiger Cub dens started and running with excellent programs, in my opinion.

 

 

 

[kari_cardi]

I think it sounds like you have several challenges ahead of you. First is helping the parents be Tiger Cub partners and not just chauffeurs who stay in the room. Ideally, this expectation would have been set at recruitment. It doesn't sound like that is the case here. So now you need to set expectations. I agree with the others, the friendly but direct approach is best. I am going to guess that your pack is active during the school year and takes a slower approach in the summer. I'd chose a couple of the most likely parents and give them specific assignments to run meetings in the next few months. Build on that relationship and experience to chose an assistant den leader for the Wolf year.

 

Second, I think your pack leadership is a bit disorganized and could use some help. I would be the friendly but persistent bug for the information you need. Ask the secretary or the committee chair for the meeting notes from the meeting you missed. Ask the Cubmaster to fill you in on upcoming pack activities. Ask the committee chair when the next leaders meeting is and if it is a regular thing. If you ask, it will remind the CC to send out emails before the next meeting, and the secretary will get those notes typed up and distributed because someone might actually read them. Or not, because maybe the pack leaders are overstretched and in survival mode and well, then you have other issues to consider.

 

A good place to find camaraderie and support is your district roundtable. Both experienced and newbie scouters attend, a wide variety of useful topics are covered, and you will learn so much about Cub Scouts and BSA that you will find useful as you and your twins continue in scouting.

 

One last note regarding parent and scout participation. Cub Scouts is a volunteer organization with voluntary participation. It is very common to have parents and scouts with varied degrees of commitment and participation. I think that is ok, as long as the boys are having fun and the parents appreciate the experiences we give their sons. When I plan an event, any event, I expect that not everyone will participate. Sometimes I can ask for commitment ahead of time, sometimes I can estimate and predict who will attend and sometimes my boys and I pick up the slack. The way I see it, my sons do more in scouting than most, but they get more from scouting than most. WIN!

 

Best of luck!

[SSScout]

It is a sad reflection on todays parent that they often miss out on the only time they will have to affect the growth of their child. Ten years from now, they will wonder why they have no affect on their child's behavior. What is it the Bible tells us? Bring up the child in the right way and when he is older, he will know how to go?

What you are experiencing is what I call the "soccer syndrome": drop the kid off and come back in 2 hours. It is far too often that the parent doesn't think they CAN know how to "parent" . Tiger Cub gives that opportunity.

You must insist and enforce the need for the parent to attend and stay with their child for the meeting. Hand the parent a pair of scissors the second they enter the door, ((don't let them drop the boy off at the curb)), and tell them to cut this out for you... Give them a definite assignment, WITH THE BOY, immediately. Tell the boys that their parent(s) are invited to be part of the Den. Make sure that the boys know, and help them to place the guilt trip on the parent. They have to make the choice: Which is more important, Their BOY or - ?- ?? The boy will only be 7 (or 8, or 9....) ONCE.

 

Thank you for your service. Noli illegitimi non carborundum.

[howarthe]

Welcome, Lisa! I'm a new tiger, Mom, too! It's March, so I feel like our tiger year is almost over. We only got started in December. The pack sort of fell apart last fall, and it took me awhile to realize that they were not going to put themselves back together on their own, so I jumped in with both feet. I think I got my best training from the tiger cub handbook. There were only two tiger cub scouts, so I quickly dispensed with the shared leadership portion of the program. Since then we have added two more tiger cub scouts. Their partners are great! They come to all the meetings, and one even accepted an invitation to serve on the pack committee.

 

Keep trying to get yourself to those pack committee meetings. I've read lots of tiger programs are rather overlooked by the pack committee. Find out what the pack needs and fill that need for them. They won't be able to ignore you after that. With my pack is was recruitment. I wasn't satisfied with a den of two boys, so I asked the principle if my son could invite all the boys in his class to join cub scouts. The school lets the students do that sort of thing when inviting classmates to birthday parties. The principal said no, but he offered to run the invitation in the school newsletter. I knew I wouldn't be able to limit the invitation to first graders, so I let the pack know what I was going to do. I remember they received the information with a bit of indifference, but we had seven new parents show up at our next pack meeting. I felt quite proud of myself, and now they always pay attention to me in committee meetings. I can't really complain about the pack leadership. They have been very good to me.

 

But I want to get the next tiger cub group off to a stronger start. I'm planning to invite all the interested kindergartners to our May pack meeting, and whoever shows up with get an invitation to an orientation meeting the first week in June. At THAT meeting, I plan to explain the shared leadership portion of the program, and pass around a sheet where they can sign up for which month they want to be in chart of. I will also let them know that one of them needs to volunteer to be the den leader and there are several vacant positions on the pack committee that they could volunteer for.

 

I wish you a lot of luck. Don't give up. Next year you'll be a "real" den leader.

[SeattlePioneer]

Hello howarthe,

 

 

This spring I will be doing an "egg drop" as the activity at the recuriting nights I run.

 

I get permission to visit the target schools at lunch and hand out stickers inviting boys and families to the recruiting night. These are usually supplied by your District Executive at no charge.

 

I'll have a decorated egg and describe how boys will be able to decorate and package their egg at the recruiting night and then drop it off whatever high point is available to see if it survives the drop. Boys can strongly relate to a task and competition like that!

 

A ladder is the default, with the boys climbing the ladder and dropping off their package.

 

Parents help the boys package their eggs as an example of a fun Cub Scout family activity.

 

Interested families have a chance to join the pack during the recruiting night.

 

It is all too common for Cub Packs to fail to develop and use good methods to recruit new boys in the spring and fall. I hope you'll post the methods you use and the results you get with your recruiting efforts.

(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

[jazzjeff]

Thank you so much for all of your replies and suggestions, they have been very helpful and I am going to use some of them immediately!

 

I am planning out the remaining meetings for the year and mandating that the parents sign up and run some of them. Our next meeting is Thursday so I will be rolling this idea out then, in person and not in an email or on the phone!

 

Forget the snacks! We have a drinking fountaina so I am not gonna worry about it.

 

We have 6 boys in the den and I had been thinking of recruitment ideas for next year and am going to use the suggestions you gave and start before the end of this school year. As frustrating as this year has been I still have that drive to make it a fun and successful den. I may message those who had some ideas laterbecause I will be suggesting them to the pack later.

 

As far as the leadership goes, I guess it is time for me to stop sitting back and just rock the boat so to speak. I did not know about the first 2 leader meetings, the third was held when the packs and leaders did an overnight out of town. So only the leaders who were able to attend that overnight were included, I could not go because of work. I have only been able to make one because the meeting is held on a day and time that I am always at work, so I am going to ask that we move this time so I can be involved. I had an issue this morning with them, the scouting for food drive collection was this morning and the only kids that showed up from my den were my twins so we had to collect from our entire territory of 192 homes. (32 homes per scout) Saw the ACM at the meeting time and he just said to do the best you can and left. I was under the impression that the territories for pick up would be evenly assigned to all the scouts that showed, but that did not happen. I have to say I am really angry at that and plan on telling them what a poor example of teamwork he just displayed. On a brighter note, my kids had a BLAST collecting all those bags so it really worked out for them and the neighbors were great so there is a definite positive from this.

 

As far as asking about how my den is doing with achievements and awards, no one has asked..I keep track and get my own awards for the scouts. I don't think there is an advancement coordinator in the pack.

 

I am also going to use the denner idea with flags for my scouts because my current ceremony is total chaos lol, love the idea that they can take the flag home and keep it safe. I am going to have a more serious meeting Thursday and rollout the new ideas and get parents to sign up, I am going to the next leaders meeting with a notebook full of suggestions and maybe I will get somewhere with this. I will check back on Thursday and let you know.

 

Thank you again to all that replied- you have no idea how helpful you have been and just given me a bit of knowledge to use to make some positive changes. Lisa