Drama at the PWD Starting to Snowball...HELP!!!!

[Twocubdad]

So, JoeBob, you would be okay dropping your boys off at a camp where no one pays attention to stuff like perishable foods being left out in the heat or that the boys are provided clean drinking water and have sanitary toilet facilities? That any ol' Tom, Dick or Harry can run the aquatics program or shooting sports? Hey, Mildred was a lifeguard in high school and besides, anyone who can't swim can wear a life jacket if they want to, right? Climbing towers seem like a fun thing for the Tigers, why shouldn't they be allowed to do all the stuff the Boy Scouts do. And since we're way out in the woods no one will ever find the camp so there's no reason to train the staff on stuff like having a suspicious person in the camp. And being Boy Scouts every one already knows first aid and what to do in an emergency. Why waste additional time?

 

Day Camp accreditation is based on a set of "camp standards" which are updated annually by national. There are different standards for day camps, resident camps and high adventure. Some programs, like COPE and climbing have their own program standards.

 

The curriculum for National Campiing School is built around these standards and making sure the camp directors understand them and know what is required to meet them. Every camp is required to have at least two camp school-certified adults as camp director and program director. (The training and certification varies by the type of camp you are running.) Some programs, like aquatics, shooting sports and COPE/climbing require camp school-certified supervisors over those area.

 

Personally, I am not aware of a camp which has been closed in the manner you describe. Camp visitations teams (PC-speak for "camp inspectors") are trained to help camps meet the standards, and not disrupt the program. However they most certainly are authorized to close a camp if there is an eminent danger to the campers. More likely, if a particular camp program does not meet mandatory standards (for example, the aquatics staff doesn't have the proper certification or the pool failed to pass local health inspections) only that sub-standard area of camp would be closed until the standards are met.

 

I can't imagine a council which would allow a camp to be closed. If I were to inspect a camp and learn that neither the CD or PD were certified, I'd be on the phone with the Scout Executive. In my council I know heaven and earth would be moved to find two directors with valid certifications.

 

This only scratches the surface. CSDS camp school is three LOOOONG days. Resident camp school is a full week. If you want to learn more, go to http://www.ncsbsa.org/resources/standards/ which has all the 2012 standards posted. I'd recommend reading the Visitation Team orientation booklet. It's only a few pages and gives you a good overview of the process.

[Mrw1]

You do not need her book for camp although it would be helpful. Call your neighboring districts for their cub camp plans and you will be all set to go. As far as the equipment, arrange for a district storage place and require all district supplies to be stored there rather than in personal sheds. You can change this policy again as soon as all the materials come back in. Thenfind her a job to do that does not involve interacting with kids and you will be golden. She will still have involvement in something she apparently cares about (but does poorly) and you will have less friction at activities.

[Eagle92]

I just remembered something, when I was a COPE director my course was "conditionally approved." Reason for that status was b/c we had just opened the COPE course, and not all the supplies had arrived. Inspectors were merciful b/c we were able to show them purchase orders for the missing safety gear. Some of the stuff was backordered.

 

Back on topic.

 

Thank you everyone. Matters are in motion.

[Nike]

In this situation, you may need to go way outside your normal pool. Tink of people you know who aren't Scouters at this time. Do you know any college or grad school students who may be back for summer and interested?

 

When's camp?

 

[JoeBob]

Two Cub Dad said:

"That kinda makes all the advancement minutia we're debating in other threads seem unimportant if a council will knowingly violate a major requirement of camp operation. Wow. (Yeah, I'm on staff at NCS and conduct camp visitations. I'd shut them down.)"

 

I was reacting to this, your earlier comment. Shut down a CSDC because their CD is not BSA certified? Really?

 

Eagle92 could probably put on a very good, safe camp using the existing cadre from previous years. Without a grumpy CD running folks off, it might even be easier.

 

I never said that dangerous situations shouldn't be remedied.

 

But I'm over all the empty threats from National. Instead of terrorizing volunteers with "You're gonna lose accreditation!", a more productive sales pitch would be "We have a national Camp School that will make it much easier for you to host a DC with the best program that you provide the Cubs."

 

I've not been to Camp School, but I have been distinctly UNIMPRESSED with a few people whose only qualification to run DC is they had the time to go.

 

To those who have gone to Camp School, did you learn anything that could not have be imparted through a good interactive video or online learning?

[shortridge]

JoeBob,

 

Absolutely. The idea that NCS could be replaced with online or video training is ludicrous. It's a week-long (or multi-day) event, covering everything from program tips to rules and regulations. And the benefits from getting to know other people and learn how their camps work is incredibly valuable.

 

I attended for outdoor skills director training back in my younger days, and while I didn't learn a whole lot of new skills, I did pick up some program ideas that proved very helpful. I also learned the basics of supervising and training staff, doing evaluations, how to handle problem situations, etc. - stuff that not necessarily every area director or senior staffer has had experience with.

 

That's ever-so-much-more-so multiplied in the Cub world, when most of the day camp staffers are volunteers, in my experience. Boy Scout staffers often work their way up through the ranks and have a decent amount of experience. Cub leaders may be parents with a few years under their belt as a DL or CM, but have no practical experience in putting on a day camp.

 

There is no "sales pitch" to get people to attend NCS. It's a requirement, so they have to go if they want to run the camp.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

[beardad]

I believe that the sales pitch is to find somebody to run the camp. it's been my experience that nobody actually wants to run the camp. it's usually the person who wasn't at the meeting where it was decided got volunteered for it.

[Eagle92]

JoeBob,

 

I'm actually NCS certified to be a CD or PD, same cert is good for both positions. The problem I have is that I have a Tiger going to camp this summer, as in he joins the BSA 1 June 2012, and Tigers need partners. Like Short, NCS was very beneficial as I was new to the position. Grant you a lot of the topics I have some knowledge of, but it is an intense week, got lots of great advice and caught up on the times.

[Eamonn]

Many years back (10 or may 12?) I was on staff for NCS Cub Scout Day Camp.

Back then you needed to have both the Program Director and the Camp Director attend.

This was changed. Now only the Camp Director need attend.

Some of the Standards may seem silly, depending on where your day camp will be located. It's worth remembering that these Standards are National Standards and there can be a vast difference between a Day Camp held in the city park of a well to do area and the camp held on a area of scrub land in the back of beyond.

The Mandatory Standards are very important and I for one wouldn't advise ignoring them.

If the camp has been held at the same site/place for a number of years and good records have been kept, dealing with a good number of the standards isn't that difficult.

NCS isn't cheap! The certification was good for 3 years. -I don't know if this is still the case? But sending one or two people (Normally a new DE will be sent!) Can blow a big hole in the camp budget. Also there tends to only be very few times a year when it's offered.

When I was on staff the course was at Heritage Scout Reservation and we had participants from all over the NE-Region, people coming from as far away as Maine.

With this in mind, the District Committee might have reasons for not changing things.

 

It's very easy for people to say or post "She has to go!" However true this might be removing someone who serves at the District level is not always an easy task.

Someone has to do the removing.

As a rule (But not always!) The person who did the "Hiring" is the person who does the removing. (Fire is never a good word in a volunteer org.)

If the District Committee has an Activities Committee the Activities Chair, might be the person, but in most cases it will fall on the District Chairman.

District Chairs are at times strange animals.

I wasn't selected because I knew anything about Scouts and Scouting, I was selected because of my connections to the business community.

Some District Chairs, while they support the ideals of Scouting, know squat about real world Scouting. If you read the job description , District Chairs don't need any knowledge of program.

Maybe the best Eagle92 can do is have a chat with the District Chair and explain his side of the story. -But that's about it.

What happens next is really out of his hands.

 

 

For a number of years we had a woman who was en ployed as the Resident Cub Scout Director.

Back then Cub Scouts camped by Den, that is we had a Wolf Camp, a Bear Camp, A First year Webelos camp and a Second Year Webelos Camp. Each camp had a volunteer program director and they each did a really outstanding job.

But this woman was just really hard to get along with. - Things were very much her way or the highway.

I attended one Cub Scout Resident Camp sign-up meeting. She had a 68 book of rules and stuff that she had photo-copied for each pack, which I thought was over the top, but when she started to read it page by page, line by line. I wanted to get together with the other Cub Scouter's and form an escape committee. This was Feb and the camp wasn't till summer!!

The word flexible wasn't in this ladies vocabulary.

I over the years seen her send Cub Scouts home for not having the right paper work.

I watched as she be littled adults in the dining room.

She was on one heck of a power trip.

She was also in charge of our Parent /Son weekends.

These weekend were run by volunteers. With five weekends and four Districts each District took a weekend and one weekend each year one District got stuck with two.

She arrived one year at a weekend that the volunteers from the District I served were running.

She was a right royal pain in the neck.

She managed to upset everyone. Even me!! Which is kinda hard.

Our District volunteers were ready to walk and swore that they would never volunteer for another parent/son weekend.

I met with the Council Camping Chairman. I didn't hold back.

The next year she wasn't hired to work at any of the Cub Scout camps.

The camps went on, the Cub Scouts still went to camp.

When I was looking for someone to serve as Scribe for the WB course I was CD for, I knew from the get go that she was the person that would do the best job. So I asked her and she said yes.

She did a outstanding job and we are good friends.

Having said that, I'd hate to see her back as the Cub Scout Camp Director.

Ea.

 

[Eagle92]

Again thank you to everyone.

[JoeBob]

Eagle and TwoCub,

 

Thanks for the positive feedback on a national training program. I know I'm averse to most things 'national' because of the little bit of information you get woven into a blanket of indoctrination and minutia. Of the three Camp Directors I've worked for, one was an arse, one was a housewive with time on her hands, and the other was a boob. But at least one of them was like that before they went to NCS.

 

I need to do a better job of keeping an open mind. Dynamite helps.

 

*****

So, can I assume that no one who has read this thread so far is aware of an Inspector shutting down an already running camp?

 

 

[Twocubdad]

You're a big man, JoeBob.

 

No, it doesn't seem anyone knows of a camp being shut down. And in the spirit of your post, I'll own up to a bit of hyperbole myself. If I were inspecting and camp and the ONLY problem was the lack of certified directors, they would probably rate a conditional accreditation and we would all be on the phone trying to track down retired directors, inspectors and instructors who would be willing to hang their shingle at the camp and get them legal. The real concern, however is a camp with no trained directors is going to have LOTS of other problems, either through lack of training and knowledge or the attitude that the standards don't matter.

 

The enforcement is like any other professional licensure. In my job I get the newsletter from the state board which list all the disciplinary action for the past quarter. The stuff with licensees is occassionally serious but usually technical, paperwork violations. The really dangerous stuff is from unlicensed folks operating without training or oversight.

 

I think the lack of shutdowns (at least in our vision, I'm sure it happens somewhere) is testament to the training and the enforcement of the standards. The threat is real. Also understand these camps are council events and under the supervision of a (usually) professional adviser. No DE or SE is going to want a closed camp on his resume. Being council events, the council is directly on the hook for any liability. I know a couple years ago our summer camp got an conditional accreditation with a week to fix the problem. It was an absolute Katy-bar-the-door, all hands on deck fire drill to get it fixed.

 

National Camp School remains the absolutely best Scout training I have attended, bar none. I've recommended it to Cubmasters even if they have to pay for it themselves and have no plans of ever stepping foot in a day camp. (Most wont' do it because they're afraid if their DE finds out they're trained they'll get roped into running a camp -- they're probably right.) The level of program training, the understand of the principles of Cub scouting (camp school was the first time I ever heard to the Values of Cub Scouting), the health and safety stuff is absolutely invaluable. Camp school is much, much, much better training for Cub leaders than Wood Badge can possibly -- cost about the same, takes half the time and no ticket. The instructors are the best of the best. Next month will be the sixth or seventh year I taught at camp school and I'm still amazed by what the people there do and that they tolerate a goof like me on staff.

[CalicoPenn]

Seems were concentrating on the wrong thing here - camp school certification.

 

This volunteer, for whatever reason, is cranky. That in and of itself is no big deal - except that it is affecting the enjoyment of the Cubs, it's affecting the program, and it's hacking parents off.

 

I'm going to disagree with Basement on the looking for an excuse. Tiger Cub parents don't look for excuses to leave, they look for reasons to stay. If they've been having a positive experience in the pack, and their first taste of a district event leaves a sour taste in their mouth, how many of them might be wondering "is this what Cub Scouts is really like?" At least one Cubmaster is worried that he's going to lose parents and Cubs because of this volunteer.

 

I think the camp school certification discussion is diverting us from the real issue here, which I believe is found in the following excerpts:

 

"We've had problems with her in the past as you may have read. A lot of folks do not want to work with her, nor attend events run by her. Day Camp attendance has increased b/c I have served as an intermediary between her and staff, and folks deal more with me than her. In fact several staffer have point blank told me, that they will only deal with me."

 

and

 

"Discussions with her have occured in the past, I did one of them as a DE 14 years ago, and it seems like it makes a short term change, but nothing long term."

 

and

 

"Problem is we are so small a district, and about 1/2 the active Packs do not participate on the district level. Partly b/c we have not had an active CS RT to get info out, partly b/c of teh activity chair. I'm working on the RT part though."

 

We aren't talking about a single incident of crankiness (we all have bad days). This is a pattern. People don't want to work with her. Active Packs are avoiding District events which may partly be due to her. Volunteers have walked away from her. Now parents are starting to mention it, and not in a positive way.

 

If counseling could devastate the day camp, what do you think inaction will do?

 

Forget about the camp school certification issue - that's an issue easily solved - either get someone trained or borrow a certified CD from elsewhere - a neighboring district or council - for the year. Using that as an excuse to avoid making the hard choices is just wimpy - there, I said it. Look at the broader picture - how much more damage is the District going to let this toxic asset do to the District's program and reputation before someone takes action? What's the point of holding CS Roundtables if the Packs aren't going avail themselves of District activities in the first place.

 

Eagle92 - taking on Roundtable is great - unfortunately, I don't think you can fully solve that issue without the District solving the Activity Chair issue as well.

 

 

 

 

 

[SSScout]

What Calico said.....

 

Again, the first time customer is easy to get: past use recommendations, past reputation, special offers, pep talks, personal needs (however perceived), any business (and Scouting IS a business, even if a volunteer one) can get the FIRST visit. It's the SECOND and THIRD and FORTH visit you want. And that is obtained by good service, value for your money, meeting the customer's expectations and needs.

In Scouting, we have two customers: the KID and the PARENT. Each has a different expectation and desire. The kid wants fun, a little adventure and perhaps , later, pride in accomplishment and skills gained.

The parent wants (?) a sitter service, better behavior (thru our requiring responsibility for one's actions), outlet for energy, skills gained (cooking? knot tying? history learned?), and later, pride in their urchin's maturity gained. I hope.

If the server (the dragon lady) is NOT serving these needs, but instead serving her own misguided desires, then guess what? the customer goes away, or finds another place to meet their needs: Heritage Girls, Yawana, Campfire, YMCA, wherever.

Do the deed. Find this lady another job or just say"thank you for your past service" and give her the (metaphoric) Gold Watch.

 

We know we have a good product. "They" know we have a good product. But if the product is corrrupted with a poor interpretation or other distention or misinterpretation, "they" will not come back. "If we build it, they will come",

but they don't necessarily have to stay or come back .