Once more onto the breeches! PWD is upon us

[Basementdweller]

Oh we have workshop nights.....first one 3 scouts show up, second one 2 scouts, then the last one 40. you now have 30 pissed off parents because you cannot help their son.......

 

 

So I spent 3 hours hearing Mr. B can you help me.

[meschen]

Wish I had the ability to pull this off. I think it would eliminate 90% of the problems with parent built cars:

 

Packs should impound all axels and wheels when the kits are handed out. The night before the Derby, when the cars are to be registered, you hand out a random set of four wheels and axels to each Scout. Have the DL's teach the Scouts how to set the axels and lube the wheels for themselves. Yeah, some of the parent built cars would look nice and shinny but the Scouts who built their own would be the ones responsible for much of the performance.

[Scoutfish]

Yeah, it totally sucks taht we have a a handfull of rules, but we did not make them for the sake of making them..

 

We made them speciffically due to issue coming up at PWD's.

 

For instance:

 

Wheels must be flat edged and original width.

 

Why? Because we had some cars with rounded wheels, some were 1/8th inch thick, some were tapered wheels.

 

Once cars pass inspection, only PWD crew officals can handle cars

 

Why? Because scouts and parents try to add extra weights or lube to cars after weigh in and inspection.

 

Because people have been " I was only looking at it" - when they "accidentally" dropped the competitions car or bent a wheel or pulled a weight off.

 

Because overly enthusiastic scouts have dropped their cars while running to put it on the start ramp or have inadvertantly knocked other scouts cars to the floor where they get damaged.

 

Thing is, if your car was running great during test runs and you really, really worked hard on it, will saying " Oh, better luck next time!" really make you feel better?

 

Or would it be better to let us take your car and you watch your car race 4 or 5 times?

 

 

99% of our scouts do have a blast with the cars, and even more of that is directed at design than racing, but it's the 1% who can ruin a race for an entire den because of shady practices.

 

Our rules are not for control, but for fairness.

[DeanRx]

mom2cubs - I can certainly understand your feelings on the issue, However a few observations...

 

1) How do you KNOW its an adult built car? My son won the pack champion in his Tiger year. I showed, then guided, and finally encouraged (sounds like EDGE method to me) him to diligently grind and then polish the axles, showed him what the axle straighting die was for and how to use it, and how to wet sand the "pips" on the running surface of his wheels. I helped a little, but HE did the majority of it. WHY? should he not have won? He put in 3+ hours for 3 different nights into that car. I could hardly get my work clothes off before he was hauling me into the garage every night that week. I'd go so far as to say its the greatest amount of effort and concentration the boy had ever put into one outcome in his small 1st grade life... that cannot be a BAD thing.

 

I'm sure some people thought it was a "dad" built car, but I'm not going to feel bad about it. My son put a LOT of work into that car and reaped the rewards. We have ALWAYS had an open garage and share any speed tips we know of. Everything I learned, I read for free of the internet, its there for anybody to get.

 

Secondly, sorry to break it to everyone, but just because a kid puts his "heart and soul" into a car doesn't mean he's going to win. Life doesn't work like that and contrary to most everything these kids do at school, church youth group, and most sports leagues anymore - not everyone wins a trophy every time. The sooner our youth learn that, the better it will serve them in life. Seems to me some parents are quick to jump on the "dad built it for him" bandwagon instead of thinking, "Hmmm he / they designed a really great car and we could learn alot from them, we better up our game next year if we want the big trophy." Nope. Just easier to cry I didn't have the info spoon-fed, I didn't have the same tools, we didn't know. Guess what, other than racing PWD 20+ years ago, I had no special skills or info prior to my son's first race. I am not an engineer, I'm in the medical field. But we worked together to go find and then impliment the "tips" to build the fastest car we could. I thought that was what 'competition' is all about?

 

Now, with all that said - I DO share all and any info with anyone interested enough to ask.

 

Also, we go all out on awards for PWD, giving a throphy for 1,2,3 in the pack & a trophy for 1st in each den, plus a medal for 2nd and 3rd in each den. That way its reasonable that a kid who puts a decent amount of effort into his car will likely go home with some hardware.

 

As for a laundry list of rules... we go with what our council publishes, because if the pack champ car doesn't meet these specs, then it can't race at the council wide race in April at the scout fair.

 

Basement.... 0.01 of an ounce is actually 0.28 grams or 280mg... its actually quite a bit of weight and would not pass the weigh in test at our pack's meet (then again it wouldn't past muster at the council event either). The unit should invest in a scale that can weigh in tenths or hundreths of a gram. $40-$50 of unit funds will get a decent scale.

 

Meschen - WHY on earth would you impound the axles and wheels until the night of and then randomly hand them out? Then there is absolutely NO skill involved. The axles out of the box are nails, they have spurs on them to grip wood that cause friction. Some have very fine spurs, some have very large spurs, so the cub with a lousy draw will no doubt loose.... its a crap shoot! You might as well not even run the cars and just have the boys throw dice for who gets 1st, 2nd, 3rd ?!?!? I understand wanting to tone down "adult built" cars, but random drawing of wheels / axles with no work allowed on them is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

 

Now, anyone coming to punches over the PWD... well - that's just nutty and speaks more to the mental state of the "adults" (term used loosely in this case) than the stress of the event.... sheesh!

[Jeffrey H]

In our Pack, we encourage the cars to be built as a Parent/Son projects with an emphasis on the sons helping with their projects. We do not attempt to judge whether a car was primarily built by Dad because there is no way to be sure. Our only judging criterion is that each car passes the Derby rules e.g., only the block, wheels, and axles from the kit can be used and the car weighs no more than 5 ounces.

 

Regarding fairness: Everyone in our Pack has an equal opportunity to attend a Derby workshop to help build their cars and learn a few speed tips. Parents and sons that take the time to learn and want to learn will generally do better at the Derby.

 

 

[momof2cubs]

Dean, I am pretty sure that for everyone around this forum, this isn't our first rodeo. A lot of people have been around a long time and they have seen a lot of PWD races. When you know the kid in question and you know the dad, you can tell when dad did 99.9999% of the work. And I wasn't the only one whose eye balls rolled that year.

 

So your kid won on his own. GOOD FOR HIM. But how would he had felt if he after all his work he had came in 2nd to a car built by a dad? Or worse, a professionally made one?

[SSScout]

We are a Scout Troop that helps out (and runs!) our brother Pack's (same CO) PWD. The Pack uses the rules in the PWD kits. No discussion, thems the rules. We have three areas at the Derby: (1)a "Pit Area" for last minute adjustments and to correct problems. We make sure there is an "unofficial scale", tape, glue, some spare wheels and axles and some basic tools.

(2) the "Official Check In". The Scout(s) here give the car a visual inspection(only kit wheels, nail axles, no radical modifications to the basic setup), make sure the car fits into the "dimension box" ,scales at 5.00 ounces or less. Each car is given a small number sticker on the bottom or rear and logged in as to ownership and Den. The car is then CAREFULLY placed in the "Ready" area, and segregated as to class: Cub and Den, or Sibling or Unlimited (adult!).

(3) the race way is roped off and limited only to the Officials running the race. One can sit close to, about 3 feet away, on the "Infield" floor, or in the "Grandstand" chairs.

Scoutmaster IT professional handles the scoring, which is projected on a screen in back of the Start Line. We do a multi-elimination race, so each car will race at least four times. Electric timer, attached to the track, eliminates all arguments about finish.

Scout working on Communication MB is usually announcer, and is encouraged to ham it up: ("ARE YOU READDYYYYY TO RAAAAACE?").

The Pack has a prize for almost every conceivable category. Almost. There are some last places, after all.

The Pack hands out one PWD kit to the boys before Christmas and it is made clear ("Scout's Honor") that the car should be designed and made by Cub, with adult help, as needed. Wecunderstand that it may well be adult formed, but we hope with Cub supervision! We do not question as to who made the car , if it is in the Cub Class.

RARELY has a car been DQ'd due to non-BSA wheels or axle.

Along with the B&G, the PWD is definitely a high point of the year.

 

But then, that's just the way we do it. You do it YOUR way, and have fun!

 

[DeanRx]

He actually came in 4th in his den the following year, and then competed for the top 3 in the pack in his Bear year, so yeah it happens.

 

Bottom line 99.9% of pinewood speed is due to wheels and axles. I have seen a block of wood, no paint, with 5oz of weight beat 99% of our pack field, becuase the scout and dad spent their entire effort on wheels, axles and getting them balanced, riding a rail and one front wheel off the ground. Did the dad do most of the thinking? Probably, but so long as they worked on it together... good for them.

 

If they are running a pro-built car, then I guess the lesson that kid is learning is that dad will spend top $$ to get him in the game instead of a little time to develop his son's character. I don't disagree that it sucks whn it happens.

 

But, at the end of the day - I am only responsible for the expirience MY son has. I also control HOW he learns to react to defeat (even an unfair defeat - those happen a lot in real life too, so get used to them boys....).

 

PWD is really when DO YOUR BEST comes into play.

 

I see no difference in a family buying a pro-built car in PWD and the family who signs off on Jr.'s advancement acheivements, even though when you TALK with the scout in the den meetings its easily found out he doesn't know his skills. I KNOW when my son gets an achievement signed off, he KNOWS the material - or I don't sign it off.

 

Yes, we've had discussions about fairness and WHY some kids seem to make WEB pins and rank faster and easier than others. But unless, BSA allows for a cubmaster conference on ranks, if the parent signs off, then the kid did it!

 

It doesn't cheapen the fact that the scout that actually DOES THE WORK, EARNED their recognition. I see PWD much the same way, b/c if you don't, I guess you end up with parents punching each other over the race ?!?!?

 

If you feel that strongly about it, then don't have your cub participate.

 

There is really NO way to tell if an axle has been machined without pulling the wheel off. Doing so would likely harm the alignment of the car, so in checking, you are wrecking the kid's work. Now, you can eyeball, or use a dial caliper to check diameter and thickness of wheels. Most of the time the amount of wheel machining needed to add advantage is easily seen.

 

If there is EVER a question, we have a 3 person panel at the check-in (chosen in advance) - they each independently give a 'go' or 'no go'to the car in question. It states in no uncertain terms that their decision is FINAL.

 

If its a NO-GO, then the car can run in the super unlimited and can get votes for the cub choice, but will not run for cub-only division and cannot go on to represent the pack at the council race. In 4 years (this being the 5th this weekend) of helping with and running PWD for the pack, I can remember ONCE having to tell a scout his car can't run in the cub division. He and his dad had machined the wheels into thin rimmed disks (clearly in violation on our pack rules sheet).

 

The kid was disappointed, so we told him (we have backup wheels that hae been sanded) he could use backup wheels (i.e. pull him and replace), or just run in super unlimited. As I recall, he ran in unlimited and took a prize in the scout's own voting.

[momof2cubs]

Dean, I think that's part of my point. I have stated this here before, but I believe that everything in scouts should be about making boys into men of character. I had posted on a popcorn thread about a kid whose parents spent $10K in popcorn and wrote it off since they own a business and they used them as corporate gifts. Even though I don't know this, it is very likely that the kid got all kinds of accolades and recognition for basically just having wealthy parents. In my opinion this is a lot of the same thing. When a kid wins on a car he really didn't work on and he gets all kinds of prizes, recognition, and accolades for just having a handy (and ultra competitive) dad, what are we teaching that boy? Like you said, he is learning that daddy will do things for you all the time and you will reap the benefits.

 

Not a lesson my children will ever learn for sure. And yes you are right that you can only control your son's enjoyment. But at the same time, as leaders, I think we have a responsibility to all the children in our charge. No, we cannot control their parents. But we can create an environment where at least in scouting, we teach them the good lessons.

[JoeBob]

Hey Momof2,

 

You can't help the bad lesson that the rich-kid / engineers's-son learns. But you should not deprive your son of the good lessons and experiences of PWD because of someone else's bad example.

 

Losing to an unfair competitor happens in real life, too; and learning how to deal with it is a valuable experience. And I'm not sure that the boys, especially the younger ones, catch on to the unfair advantage. Unless overly sensitive adults point it out to them...

[momof2cubs]

My sons definitely noticed the unfairness last year. And they weren't the only ones. And yes, I did turn it into a teachable moment and we had long talks about fairness, being proud of doing the work yourself, etc.

 

You are right about everything else. Can't change other people, only your reaction to them.

[DeanRx]

2Cubs...

 

Then your sons had a "bad" PWD expirience, but had the opportunity to LEARN something much more important from it than the boy with a pro-built car will ever learn. Its a tough thing as a parent to watch your kid go through something like that. They likely won't realize the benefit for a long time to come, but some day they will.

 

In a right and just world, the kid who puts in the most effort would win every time. Unfortunately, there's no such world, even in cub land.

 

The only thing we as parents can do is teach our kids how to react appropriately to those types of situations. Best of luck and hope your PWD is an enjoyable one this year.

 

Dean

 

[ShutterbugMom]

I think there is a huge problem with Daddy made cars and it really upsets me and almost everyone I know. The *same* child won the den race all FIVE years in a row in my son's den. One year I even remember his dad showing off "Little Johnny's car" several weeks before the derby. I am so relieved it is over one on the one hand. On the other, I've got 5 more years when my younger son becomes a Tiger!

 

I love the idea of making it a fun family night on Friday night. I am on the committee and suggested a Friday night once upon a time, but nobody would hear of it. Saturday mornings are really a nightmare actually because most of the kids also play basketball.

 

Our den has an "outlaw" race for the dads, but for the last few years, not a single person has entered. We also have a sibling race, but only 2-3 siblings have done that for the last few years.

 

[Tampa Turtle]

I never have seen many entries for the Outlaw races; sometimes a leader and a boyscout. I think the reasons may be:

 

(1) The ones who are going to skirt the intent and build their boys cars aren't going to bother--they want a "real" trophy.

 

(2) The ones who keep in the intent and only supervise their boys can get burn't out by it. I know there were cars with my boys that took 3 or 4 sessions to get done. What with work, etc I didn't have much extra time to play around with an extra car.

[OwntheNight]

If you want to come in with the attitude of having your son win at all costs, be my guest. I won't DQ your son's car, unless it is just blatantly obvious, then I'll let you rectify it before it goes through inspection. Let it race and see how it does against the other boys' cars. If you win, great. I'll raise your son's hand in victory, until.......I then step up to the microphone and announce that the official races are over and now the challenge heats begin. Boys are allowed to challenge ANY other car they want to a race and the BOYS get to set up the cars and run the race however they want, facing forward, backward, up the track, however they want to run those races!I will see the look of terror in your eyes, as your precious "baby" will be raced in a matter it wasn't painstakingly engineered for. I'll also see you hover over the car while the 8 yr old tries putting it at the top of the starting gate not so gently. Then I and everybody else will know the real story.

 

Next year, you will be hosting the workshops for the pack, sorry, you can't use the "I don't have the tools" excuse. The pack just bought a bandsaw, drill press, and sander for just this. You will be on the PWD committee, which means Friday night before the race, I will hand the keys and the code to the storage shed to you. It will be your responsibility to get the track out of storage and set it up at our race location. Did I mention, the track comes in 2 cases we like to call coffins. 7 ft long, 3 ft wide, all wood, approx. 250 lbs each, also No wheels! As a member of the PWD committee, you will be sitting in planning meetings and sending out emails and answering the constant questions from families about the race. As the Cubmaster, I will support you and help you in any way I can. How's that "win at all costs" working out for you now?

 

If that doesn't scare you, then I'll put you up against one of our boys I like to refer to as "Dale Earnhardt". Pack champion last 2 years, District overall champion last year. What's his secret? Dad isn't an engineer or mechanically inclined. They bought the "Secrets to Speed" book at the scout store and followed the directions perfectly. While this boy likes to win and is proud of winning, he's also a very humble winner and is truly one of the leaders in his den. He doesn't do this because of winning the race, he does this because this is time he gets to spend with his grandfather as they work on that car together. Years from now, when he hears the sound of a bandsaw, and the smell of sawdust, he won't think of the championships, but that special time he shared with paw-paw, and the bond they had. That's what Pinewood Derby is about.