Same-aged den chief?

[83Eagle]

There's a fourth grade Webelos in our Pack who has an older brother in a Boy Scout troop. The 4th grader has long been excited about moving up. He will easily earn his AOL this year and, with an earlier birthday, he will be older than 10 1/2 next spring.

 

So, he's considering joining the troop by summer 2012. On the other hand he's a bit reluctant to leave his buddies behind, if only for a year until they catch up.

 

What are thoughts on having him be a den chief for the 5th grade den next year?

[shortridge]

Don't do it. That is a horrible idea.

 

A den chief is a mentor, a guide, a coach, an instructor. He should not be approaching his job from the point of view of hanging out with his "buddies." You can't have it both ways. That's an awful reason to want to be a den chief. From a practical point of view, too, his buddies aren't going to view him as a den chief - they're going to view him as a pal. He will have zero authority.

 

Den chiefs should be experienced Scouts who can independently lead activities and instruct Scouting skills. Unless this young man is a stellar camper who's heads and shoulders above everyone else, mature and skilled, he's not going to be able to do the job.

 

Bad, bad, bad, bad idea.

[CalicoPenn]

I'm a big proponent of Den Chiefs - and always will be. As most know, I also don't like a lot of artificial barriers being put in the way of the boys. There are no hard and fast rules about who can and who can't be a Den Chief. The BSA makes a lot of suggestions, but doesn't turn around and say a 10 1/2 year old Scout can't be a Den Chief for a Webelos Den.

 

That being said, in this case, if I were the SPL/SM or the CM/DL, I would not turn around and appoint a Scout who has just crossed over as a Den Chief to the den he just left. One of the main purposes of a Den Chief in a Webelos den is to have someone versed in Scout skills that can assist the Den Leader and serve as a living recruitment poster, if you will.

 

The BSA recommends a lad be at least First Class to be a Webelos Den Chief - the reason is because a First Class Scout has worked through the basic scout skills. I don't consider this to be hard and fast - you could have a very talented Tenderfoot or Second Class Scout that could fit the bill - but they'll tend to have been in the program long enough to have a few outings under their belts, and are often older Scouts that are just going through the program at their own pace. There is also the issue of den dynamics to consider - I think the potential is there for such a situation to be more of a disruption and a hindrance than a help.

 

That all being said - if the lad is gung ho about joining the Troop and still wants to help out the Pack, why not be a Den Chief for a Tiger den, or a Wolf Den? Work his way up to a Webelos Den. If he follows a den all the way through and sees them cross over to his Troop at then end of the journey, he'll be one of those older lads in the Troop that they'll be looking towards as an example as they start their Boy Scouting journey.

[artjrk]

As Shortridge says "Bad,Bad,Bad Idea."

[83Eagle]

You'll note I didn't say whose idea it was...

 

The responses so far are kinda what I figured, but there's no rule in the Big Book O' Scouting as far as I've found, so I need an answer based on the experience of those more experienced than I...thanks.

[shortridge]

Please note I actually had another "bad" in there.

 

I agree with Calico that there shouldn't be artificial barriers. But in the circumstances described, and for the reasons articulated, the SM and CM should be putting up barriers for the good of this boy and his present-and-possibly-future den. He needs to be told he can't straddle the fence. Either way is fine, and it's entirely his choice, but he's got to make that choice.

[Eagle92]

Mixed emotions on this one. I'm going to say it depends upon the scout.

 

As Calico pointed out, there are no hard and fast rules, nor do I want them. I've seen some 11 and 12 YO scouts who were gung ho Tenderfoots and 2nd Class Scouts do great jobs. But sad to say, they are few and far between. I think DCs need the KSAs to do the job. They also need to be able to command respect, which leads to Short's objection.

 

If he want's to be a DC to hang out with his buddies, that is 110% wrong reason to be a DC. The have to have the desire to assume responsibility and be leaders and mentors, not pals. The DCs I've seen, even the young ones, worked with youth younger than them, and literally the Cubs worshipped the ground they walked on. Saddest day with my Den was when I announced that my 13yo DC, who I has as a DC since he was 12, was leaving my den for the Webelos Den since they needed someone with his outdoor experience. Lots of upset Cubs.

 

Being a DC IS a responibility, and should not be treated lightly. I would not have him work with his buddies, rather I'd have him work with the Wolves, and that IF, stressing IF he is ready for it. And only the SPL, SM, CM, and DL can really make that decision. Not parents, not the scout, and not his buddies.

 

 

[Scoutfish]

" On the other hand he's a bit reluctant to leave his buddies behind, if only for a year until they catch up.

 

What are thoughts on having him be a den chief for the 5th grade den next year? "

 

Please clarify. Is he thinking of joining a troop and then being a Den Chief, or is he thinking of staying in the pack after AOL and acting as a den chief?

 

In the former, the SM and CC have alot of input as to who acts as den chief.

 

In the latter, can't be done. He has to be a Boy SCout to be a Den Chief.

 

As a cub scout he coud be a denner.

 

Nowq, all of that aside...if the boy isn't ready to cross over, then let him stay in the pack until they all join Boy Scouts.

 

AoL ALLOWS you to cross over early, but it isn't a requirement. They boy can choose to stay in the pack and wait til his buddies cross over or until next year when he graduates from the pack.

 

I don't know the boy, Have no clue what he's like..but this could be a sign that - even though he will reach AoL, he still might not be ready emotionally.

 

W had a bunch of boys cross over last year and they couldn't wait to be Boy Scouts. One is no longer active because he wasn't ready for it. Know what I mean? Night and day!

 

HIs dad says he might wait til next year and give it another try. Luckily for the boy, his dad is not going to make him go...that's the quickest way to make the boy loathe scouting.

 

 

[83Eagle]

Scoutfish, he wants to join the troop and I have no reservations in terms of his maturity to do so. But, he is still a little torn about it which is understandable. He's not being pushed and it's good that he's thinking it through.

 

The den chief idea came up but that hasn't been presented to anyone at the troop. Before I opined on the subject myself I just thought I would get some input.

[5yearscouter]

I wouldn't allow den chief in that situation.

He could come back and be den chief MAYBE for the webelos 1's (or another den) and still see his friends at pack meetings,

he could stick around til at least one other of his friends is ready to cross over and go together (having a friend can be an immeasurable help when you join a troop and are the youngest kid there)

or stick around and finish a few more badges until most/all of the den is ready to cross over

or be invited to attend a few pack meetings as a representative from the troop to encourage more boys to cross to the troop, but not in any official capacity.

 

[Basementdweller]

If he is going to come back and participate in the webelos den then there really isn't any reason for him to join the troop.

 

I would encourage him to stay with his friends in the webelos den.

 

 

[Troop185]

I had very good experiences with young Den Chiefs. However, I found that they need to be at least two years older than the cub scouts they are working with, in order to get the respect from the younger scouts.

[AnaMaria]

Just a reminder to all that age 10 1/2 no longer means anything in scouting. A boy can become a Boy Scout at age 10 with Arrow of Light. As a Webelos den leader over the last couple of years I've run into scouters from Troops that, for whatever reason, aren't aware of this change.

[OwntheNight]

Have to agree, that's a bad idea.

 

First, the soon to be scout really should spend his first year with the troop, learning scout skills, troop culture, and making new friends. He is also learning to be self reliant, almost a deprogramming time. In that, I mean he's gone through the CS program where the adult is the leader. He's not going to get the full benefit of leading, because he will still be in CS mode, with an adult leader taking charge of everything.

 

Second, as shortridge said, there will be no respect from his den he just left. They will think it's just one of their buddies coming back to play.

 

When I ask for den chiefs from the troop, especially boys who graduated from the pack, I make sure they are assigned to a den that they have not had any interaction with. This gives the DC time to learn the personality of the den on his own. No predisposition or preconceived notions of boys he's dealt with before while in the Pack.

 

Finally, some boys think that DC is an easy POR, show up to a den meeting, build a craft, play a game...6 mos later, POR signed off. The boys that truly enjoy it keep signing up for terms, until their den has graduated. When I was the ASM for den chiefs, I explained to all the candidates, that it wasn't an easy position, but it could be one of the most rewarding if they worked at it. The expectation was that the DC was going to stay with their den until they joined the troop, so it was a 3-5 yr commitment with 6 month terms. They had to resign up every 6 mos. The good ones, always stayed on. Now as they got older, they would work with myself and their DL to work out the schedule. The fall tends to get busy for a lot of our boys, playing football and/ or band commitments, so they couldn't always make every den meeting, but they were always there during the spring, and whenever they could in the fall.

 

The boys should want to do it for all the right reasons, not as just a POR.

[AKdenldr]

Den Chief no. But the lines don't have to be so black and white.

 

Boy could join the troop and return as a guest with permission of WDL. He wouldn't be able to earn the Web awards, but could do the fun things with his guys. (Guests have good behavior.)

 

Or stay a Web for now and continue to participate as a guest at troop with permission of powers that be. He wouldn't be able to earn the scout awards yet, but would be well practiced when he did bridge with his den.

 

My thoughts.