By the way....moms aren't allowed....

[sctmom]

What about the boys who have no problem with mom along? They are being told something is wrong with them for wanting mom around or more accurately, not being upset about mom being there. I've been on overnighters with my son. For the most part, the only time I heard from him was when he wanted money. It's okay for a man to join Boy Scouting to spend time with his son (see other threads about balance), but it is NOT okay for a mom to join for the same reason.

 

What if the boys want to have troop meetings only once a month? Is that okay? What if the boys decide to never camp? Is that okay?

 

Mainly it is very clear that Boy Scouting is not for every boy. There are other organizations out there that do reach out to all kids. I'm not even going to pretend I can change Boy Scouting at any level, regardless of if it is being done right or wrong.

 

[red feather]

Rooster 7, sorry for the delay. My use of the 'd' word was in the belief that non-adult females were not allowed in boyscouts, but adult females were as leaders. That was may thinking.

 

I also believe that we all agree to a certain extent, but have some issues with the degree or level of particpation.

 

YIS

 

 

[Jerry]

Sctmom asks "What about the boys who have no problem with mom along?"

 

If a troop is going to adopt a policy only when EVERY BOY agrees... well, do I even need to finish that thought?

 

The best we can do is determine what the majority wants (within reason - and many of us still feel that a male-only outing is within reason.) If you and your son don't care for a policy legitimately adopted by a troop, if you've voiced your opinion and the troop shows no desire to change, then yeah, LEAVE. Find a troop or organization more to your liking. They can go about their business and you can go about yours.

 

Some people really need to stop forcing change on others to fit their own interests.

[OldGreyEagle]

Rooster,

 

Since I was the only one who recently made a comemnt that "the system failed", I beleive I should clarify my comment. I was not commenting on the aspect of whether or not moms should be allowed on campouts, I was commenting on Sctmom comment:

 

"Also, apparently my son is not for Boy Scouts since he doesn't want to camp every month and I don't have him focused on being Eagle at 13 years old."

 

If she feels that way, and by her posts, she has tried to do what she can, then the system has failed. I was not passing judgement on any of the posters of this thread.

[evmori]

"Because of this attitude and some other reasons, I AM taking my feminism elsewhere, along with my time, money and skills.

It is obvious that I can't be compassionate or be myself around Boy Scouts without being wrong, and I live in an area that is full of people who don't want to follow any rules or methods of Boy Scouting, so I'm through banging my head against that wall. Find me with the cubs and other groups.

Also, apparently my son is not for Boy Scouts since he doesn't want to camp every month and I don't have him focused on being Eagle at 13 years old."

 

 

Not all Troops camp every month & the BSA goal is not to have Eagles by the age of 13. In this case, perception isn't reality.

 

I gotta say that maybe Cub's is a better fit for you. It sounds like you want to be involved & Cubs requires more adult involvement than Boy Scouts.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Rooster7]

OGE,

 

Gotya...I suppose I was just being hyper sensitive to sctmom's retort. She seems to be of the thinking that people who support such a policy dislikes women. Usually that's not the motivation behind a policy like this. At least not as I envision the boys' viewpoint on this issue.(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[sctmom]

I just wonder how many of the "boy's ideas" are really the boys or is it what they think the adults want or what they have heard the adults say. As a teenager I know that I went along with what my parents wanted or what I thought they wanted (at least in front of them I did..hehe). If the boys don't like Scoutmaster Joe on the campout, can they keep him from going.

 

I am more suited for Cubs, even though I am probably more willing to walk away and have the boys do for themselves than many other adults. You don't know how many men I have seen take a tent out of a boys hands because "he wasn't doing it right". It's a modern day tent, there isn't much you can do wrong. It's up or it's not.

 

As for women in Boy Scouting, I hear many people say "oh, start by being a merit badge counselor". To me that is the last place a woman needs to be in Boy Scouting. The boys need to see MEN that have those careers or hobbies. My son KNOWS that moms have hobbies, he doesn't know that about men. As much as I like to cook, I would not teach the Cooking merit badge because boys need to see men cooking. They need to see men collect stamps, have jobs as cooks, do photography as a hobby, etc.

 

 

[Rooster7]

If the boys don't like Scoutmaster Joe on the campout, can they keep him from going?

 

Indirectly (emphasis here), I think the answer is - Yes. If this were an actual situation, I think it's time for the troop committee to find a new SM. The "Patton verses MacArthur" debate doesn't apply or belong in Scouts. Boys should look up to, admire, and like their Scoutmaster.

 

[yarrow]

I suggest all new parents in Boy Scouting start with Merit Badge Counselor. Not just women. Use your skills to benefit the troop. A number of men have not had interaction with other children and have been less involved with children's activities than most moms. Witness the predominance of women in most Cub Scout meetings, dens and pack events. Once the boys reach a certain age, dads become more interested and boys have more need. Dads need to learn how to work with other young children and learn what to expect. Merit Badge Counselor is a good place to hone these skills and then move on to other offices. Seems a natural progression for the new previously underinvolved parents....men and women. Our troop has women in several positions and offices. NEVER been a problem.

[YoungBlood]

Our troop has women in several positions and offices. NEVER been a problem.

 

That is great! I have no problem with women being involved in scouting. However, I just feel as if the boys wished to have males only on camping trips then that should be their decision along with the CO to make. Had boys in my troop realized this was an option while I was in scouting we would have voted to do so. Of course there may have been a few boys who did not like the decision, but that is life! Those boys who wanted their moms have two options. They can either live with it or find a new troop. Either way it will only build character for them. A few moms may scream cries of discrimination, but I would argue that it isn't discrimination meant to be hateful. It is simply boys wanting to be with men once a month. If you still believe this is discrimination, please tell me why you support keeping girls out of the boy scouts?

[acco40]

The "boy led" phrase causes all types of consternation in Boy Scouts. BSA allows female Scouters. That is a fact. It is not something that the boys should have a say in at all. To say the WOMEN should find another troop is preposterous. If the boys don't like it, they should find another troop.

 

In Scouts, it was not until 1965 that the first woman professional Scouter appeared. It was not until 1967 that the title Den Leader was recognized (was den mother). It was not until 1973 that the national Executive Board voted to allow women to serve as institutional representatives, Cub Scout roundtable commissioners, Cub Scout unit commissioners, unit chairmen, and unit committee members, den leaders, assistant den leaders, and den leader coaches. Females are leaders (Committee Chairs, Scoutmasters, Cubmasters, etc.) of many units. A boy doesn't like a female on a camping trip? Get over it. If he does not like a particular action, that is different.

 

A charter organization does have oversight over the leaders of a troop. They can exclude women, men, blacks, arabs, jews, etc. as they see fit. However, there sure would be politcal and possibly judicial feedback!

 

(This message has been edited by acco40)

[firstpusk]

YoungBlood,

 

In order for any troop to go out, they require mature adult leadership. I have been tour leader a number of high adventure outings. Some have been all male, some have had women leaders along. The leaders I choose to come with are asked based on what they offer the group. On another thread, I mentioned the leaders we have in our troop with some first aid or medical training. The bulk of those people are women. I also have another woman who is a lifeguard and a lifeguard instructor. No scout in my troop would have the temerity to put "Mrs. Johnson's" participation in the white water canoe trip to a vote of the scouts. They know that I would ask their father to hire comparible expertise.

 

My scouts understand that issues with adult leaders are to be dealt with by the adult leadership. Any issue you have raised can be dealt with by the proper training of adult leadership and parents. As someone who works intimately with volunteer issues at the district and council levels, I feel such an attitude throws away a significant percentage of our recruiting base. If we want to deliver the promise, we can not afford the attitude you are defending.

[Rooster7]

acco40,

 

I hate to be so blunt, but you have no idea of which you speak.

 

First, no one suggested that the boys should or could exclude women from leadership positions in the troop. It was merely said that they should have input into some policies. One of which, if so desired by the CO and the boys, could be to ban all females from participating in troop campouts. My troop does not have this policy. As a man, I have no problem with this. I like women. They often have very interesting things to say. However, I would have no problem if the boys felt male only campouts were more desirable. I understand how the boys may value such an experience. For the same reasons girls are not allowed in Scouts (or rather Boy Scouts), I can understand why the boys would seek such a policy.

 

Second, as to your last statement

 

They can exclude women, men, blacks, Arabs, Jews, etc. as they see fit. However, there sure would be political and possibly judicial feedback!

 

What feedback would that be? Do you think troops sponsored by Latter Day Saints allow non-members join? Do you think Jews are allowed to join such a troop? They are not. BSA permits COs to serve the community that they wish to represent. If you dont like that fact, heres my suggestion Get over it.

 

Perhaps one day, your great, great grandson will be posting on an Internet forum such as this and add to your ramblings, In 2040, they allowed the first girl to enter Boy Scouts. Im sure that you would be very happy if that became a reality. For me, it would simply mean that the Boy Scouts of America no longer exists. Theres a reason why organizations are created to serve only specific subgroups of the population Its so those folks can celebrate their commonality. This doesnt mean theyre being raised to hate other groups. It means they are being raised to appreciate themselves. This is something that every liberal defends whenever a minority or an oppressed group is being discussed women, African-Americans, Latin-Americans, Jews, etc. I have no problem with that concept. I believe it is right. However, there shouldnt be a double standard. Males want to be around each other and celebrate their commonality as well.

 

[Rooster7]

Firstpusk,

 

The "attitude" he is defending, is an attitude that many, if not most boys, have between the ages of 13 and 17. I challenge leaders to take an informal poll of the boys (don't try to influence their answer)...You may be surprised. These boys don't hate women. They just prefer to share their campout experiences with other males.

 

Having said this, I agree with you on a several points. There are consequences for such a policy and a troop would be foolish not to consider them. Regardless, I think it is unfair to portray supporters of this policy as bigotted as some have implied.

[Rooster7]

acco40,

 

My first post to you may have been a little on the rude side...I'm sorry about that, but your "Get over it" comment got to me. I think it misrepresents the folks in Scouting (or at least a good portion thereof) that support the policy we're discussing. You can label it as discrimination all you want, but you and others are being awfully inconsistent. If it's wrong for boys to say, "moms stay home", then it's just as wrong for BSA to say, "girls not allowed". It's not about men pounding their chests. It's about boys sharing time with men and celebrating their gender...Just like many women do. If people are tired of my ramblings on this topic, then I apologize. But understand this - I'm just as tired of the ramblings of others that are constantly "fighting for change" in society, yet never acknowledge the double standards, or worse, try to justify them.