By the way....moms aren't allowed....

[Webelosmom]

"What's wrong with a group of men and boys having time together without women around?"

 

I don't remember reading any posts on this thread that stated or even implied this. This thread keeps twisting and turning off of the original idea/question. No one has said guys can't have their guy time. None of us have said something's wrong with the males going camping without the females around.

The topic has taken many twists and turns, depending on different people and situations.

 

Although many will say that conditions don't matter (that total and complete 100% exclusionary rules are a violation of BSA policy, that scout functions are open to all parents, no matter what the parents are like, what the boys want, etc.), I would like to see the question addressed with the following

conditions/components in this hypothetical case:

 

-The boy WANTS his mom to come along (not out of insecurity, but maybe

mom camped with him when he was a WEBELOS, or maybe Dad can't be there

or camping isn't his thing).

 

- Let's also assume that the mother in this case plans to conduct herself

as your ideal BSA male adult typically would/should (not hovering,

whining, no special cushy camping/sleeping equipment, etc.).

 

- Let's also assume our hypothetical mom only plans on attending one, maybe

as much as two campouts this year (our hypothetical troop camps at least

once a month). She recognizes the importance of "guy time".

 

- Let's assume our hypothetical mom has taken Youth Protection training, etc.

Heck, let's also assume that our mom is (or plans to become) an ASM or Merit

Badge Counselor.

 

 

Again, I know some will read this and say "But these things shouldn't matter-

whether or not to allow moms shouldn't depend on the circumstances."

 

That's right, but I would like to see the question examined under more or less rational circumstances (at least, in my case, these are the conditions that I, myself, walked in with in the first place).

 

I am interested to see what the "no moms camping" argument contains, when the question is posed in this desirable (and, I suspect, boring) setting.

 

Thanks-

 

 

 

 

 

 

[KoreaScouter]

This sounds like a tempest in a teapot to me. I can't think of one Scout in the troop I serve who would want his mom to go on campouts with us. After all, with the adolescence/hormone/ independence things going on, they generally want Scout outings to be peers, and sometimes seem to tolerate leader presence only grudgingly.

 

That said, if one wanted his mom along, she wanted to go, and it didn't disrupt the program, what's the harm? You can "what if" these things to death. Basically, if a problem comes up you deal with it; if it doesn't come up, enjoy the outing.

 

We tell our families at parents' meetings the same thing that's on the inside of the Scout application, that parents are welcome at any troop activity...no secrets. I hope I'm not being presumptuous here, but the presence of a parent of either gender shouldn't affect an outing/activity of a troop that's doing it by the book with nothing to hide. Now, I suppose that assumes the parent isn't disrupting the program, but I stipulated that above, too.

 

Maybe I just haven't been around long enough to run into the difficulties that some of you have...

 

KS

[SagerScout]

Well, I guess I'm the wierdest mom around.

 

I have to restrain the SM (male) from worry over dirt at campouts. He's the kind that will never put a hot dog on a grille at a public campsite without a protective layer of foil. I believe in knocking the worst of the spiders off, maybe scrub it a little with a ball of foil, then getting it good and hot and tossing them dogs on. Haven't gotten sick yet.

 

He's afraid to let his own kids sweat for fear their asthma will trigger. My kid, also asthmatic, has to explain any LACK of sweat, and if he's still almost a human color asthma is no excuse for not working, hiking, or whatever the program may be. Through no fault of his own, he couldn't take any boys to summer camp, but I could and did.

 

I'm fortunate enough to share a lot of outdoor interests with both my sons. They are also fortunate enough to have a dad that takes them hunting and fishing, and one of them golfs with him a little. I don't like personally killing critters so I guess that's a guy thing for them. (I'm not hypocritical enough to get down on them for doing it, although I don't care for dove I do like deer and the audad sheep Tom got two years ago was fabulous.)

 

One other thing: in some other threads, parents have been faulted for not helping the troop more with their disabled, odd, or otherwise problem kids. Well, in some families the MOM is the one that is best with those kids. I know it is true with mine. So if Mom can't go camping???????

 

Anyway, I'm not dead-set against guy time or girl time. But from a practical standpoint lots of troops do depend on women outdoors and will really be leaving some talent behind if they make a blanket rule about it.

 

 

[red feather]

Oh what a diverse world scouting is.

 

Be glad that adults are interiseted enough to be involved is scouting and not using us as another kidsitting group.

 

When properly run an overnight the adults are seperate from the boys. Interaction should not be an issue. It is up to the adults to regulate each other in their relations with the other scouts. Females on overnights can be an issue yes, but as adults it should not be a big issue.

 

The scouts do not see the undercurrents that have been stated here and won't unless we, as adults, show them.

 

YIS

[Jerry]

"The scouts do not see the undercurrents that have been stated here and won't unless we, as adults, show them."

 

Sorry Red Feather, but I have to disagree. As a former scout, and as stated by other former scouts on this very thread, many scouts DO see these undercurrents, and DO prefer a male-only outing.

[Rooster7]

Furthermore, is there something evil about these so-called "undercurrents"? I think not. It is just a matter of boys wanting to be boys. It's there natural inclination. Boys like to be around other boys and they don't want adults, especially women, hovering over them. I don't have to ask any former boys scouts, to figure this out. As a man, I know exactly how most boys think...I use to be one. Does every troop want to exclude women? Probably not. Should every troop exclude women? Definitely not...Most don't have enough adult leaders.

 

However, as Jerry pointed out, this idea (no women on campouts) is not the desires of "angry white men" trying to preserve the ways of old. It's the desires of the boys. I dare say, for a particular age group, it's the desire of most healthy boys. Thatll be misconstrued, but I'll live with it.

 

[red feather]

Jerry, I based my comment about the boys not percieving the problem unless we as adults show them on a question I asked the scouts at our last troop meeting. I asked them if having a mom or moms on an avernight bothered them. The response from the boys was no it didn,t and one of the scouts asked me if it should.

 

May have to some damage control.

 

YIS

[Jerry]

Redfeather, maybe the fact that your observations and experiences differ from my own underscores the logic of allowing a troop to decide it's own policies. If your scouts choose to have women on campouts, who am I to tell them they're wrong? On the other hand, if a troop want's a "male-only" campout, and if they have the necessary male leadership to do so, then that also is their choice.

[red feather]

Jerry, I agree with the idea that the leaders of a troop go along with the wishes of the scouts. Within reason, of course. A vast majority of our overnights and high adventure trips are male only, not by choice but by the loack of female involvement in these trips.

 

For a troop to set a policy that prohibits female (moms) involvement in a trip is teaching seperation and discrimination. Recently our PLC wanted an overnight that would limit the participation to the older boys due to the physical and experience levels. To the leaders this looked like a mini high adventure outing and when it was suggested that this trip be seperate from the regular overnight it was tabled for further thinking and the overnight was planned for all scouts.

 

This is an example of reasoned leadership that keeps the ideas of scouting in action. If a mom wants to go on an overnight it is up to the other leaders to make sure that she understands what is expected and how the troop does overnights. (no hovering, staying out of the scouts camp area ,which the adults do except to stop a dangerous situation or at the request of the SPL or designate, and to treat her scout as the just one of the scouts). When this is done the trip goes well.

 

Often dads on overnights have to be told to leave the scouts be and let them make mistakes. Some dads hover as well as anyone.

 

YIS

[Rooster7]

For a troop to set a policy that prohibits female (moms) involvement in a trip is teaching separation and discrimination.

 

Okay, first, I dont think its fair to describe this policy as a lesson in discrimination. At least, its not the kind of discrimination that most people think of when that word is invoked. Nevertheless, for the sake of argument, lets say it is exactly the kind of discrimination that most folks think of That being the case, how do you explain your troops justification for discriminating against girls? Unless your troop is the exception, girls are not allowed on campouts. Youre using all the right words politically correct, no doubt! But, youre not being consistent in your stance.

 

Its interesting to me how some folks can label certain actions as discrimination, but overlook similar actions when its contrary to their own interest. Yes, such a policy is a form of discrimination against women. I wont argue that fact, but I think theres a rational and acceptable reason behind it. However, BSAs policy is also a form of discrimination against girls. Theres no difference between these two policies. If the reasons are proper (as I noted in previous posts), then Im willing to defend both of these policies. Im consistent in my stance.

 

If logic prevails, at the very least, persons who argue that such a troop policy is discriminatory should label BSAs policy against girls in the same manner and show the same contempt for it. Personally, I find no fault in either of these policies.

[heartofbrightstar]

Sorry I got in on this a little late, but I wanted to give Weblosmom some support and perspective from an active female Scouter. I have been active in Scouting for 16 years, 9 of those as a Boy Scout leader. I have encountered the same attitude, and they don't have a leg to stand on. They are hoping that you will just go away. I had the same situation and it got to a senior scout exec, and he came to visit the troop I just left, after the Scoutmaster took me to one side and told me "confidentially"that the boys didn't want me to go to summer camp with them. He did it on his own. I found out later that the boys thought I was the one who didn't want to go to camp. That was eight years ago. I am active at the district level as well, and starting with some of the council activities. I am also an member of OA, and Mic-o-Say. Now that's a bastion of male dominated domain. And you know what? It's not a big deal with most guys. If you want to be part of the greatest organization in the world-go for it! Get registered, get trained, and show up! I will not tell you that they will be your best friends, but you are there for the boys. BUT... really want to do it. Don't be half-hearted, cos everything you do will become a measure for every other woman who comes along. And it will be too hard if you don't love it. And I promise, you will reap rewards like no others. When you see a boy succeed at knot tying, or fire building or getting that Eagle...you will know why we are so passionate about it. Yis Carole

[Rooster7]

I had the same situation and it got to a senior scout exec, and he came to visit the troop I just left, after the Scoutmaster took me to one side and told me "confidentially" that the boys didn't want me to go to summer camp with them. He did it on his own. I found out later that the boys thought I was the one who didn't want to go to camp.

 

Even those of us who argued that the boys have a right to create such a policy, which would banned women on campouts, would not support this SM. Obviously, he lied. Obviously, he is wrong.

 

Don't be half-hearted, cos everything you do will become a measure for every other woman who comes along.

 

Again, if you're describing a fight against a man (SM, CC, etc.), whose creating policy to suit his own desires, I agree completely. If you're describing a fight that would deny the CO or the boys' their right to create such a policy, I say take your feminism elsewhere.

[sctmom]

"Again, if you're describing a fight against a man (SM, CC, etc.), whose creating policy to suit his own desires, I agree completely. If you're describing a fight that would deny the CO or the boys' their right to create such a policy, I say take your feminism elsewhere. "

 

Because of this attitude and some other reasons, I AM taking my feminism elsewhere, along with my time, money and skills.

It is obvious that I can't be compassionate or be myself around Boy Scouts without being wrong, and I live in an area that is full of people who don't want to follow any rules or methods of Boy Scouting, so I'm through banging my head against that wall. Find me with the cubs and other groups.

Also, apparently my son is not for Boy Scouts since he doesn't want to camp every month and I don't have him focused on being Eagle at 13 years old.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Sctmom,

 

I am sorry that you feel this way. I dont mean this in a trite way, but you haven't failed, the system has.

 

Your areas Boy Scout loss is the areas Cub Scout gain.(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[Rooster7]

Sctmom,

 

While I can and have agreed with you on a number of issues, I firmly believe that the boys are entitled to create this kind of policy (if they so chose). Furthermore, I feel it is wrong and self-serving for a woman leader to force her will over that of the boys. Scouting is for the boys, and if they believe that they can enjoy each other's company better by excluding women, I say it's their choice to make.

 

If my belief puts me on the wrong side of the fence, so be it. By the way, "the system" didn't create meso if my attitude is considered a "failure" of some kind, I guess people will have to blame my mother and father. Personally, I feel they did okay. But then again, I'm biased.