By the way....moms aren't allowed....

[yaworski]

"Why ARE the males so defensive about being without females around? Why do you fel you have to escape the females? "

 

Why do women like to have "a girls' night out"? Why are there fitness clubs for women where men aren't welcome? Men and women are different. Pretty simple idea, no? We like different things, we think differently, we act differently.

 

For tens of thousands of years, each sex has been allowed to do things by themselves and everyone was happy. Now, suddenly, women want to be everywhere that men want to be. Why?

 

Had a stereotypical mom on a campout this weekend. I had to threaten to tie her to a tree before she'd leave the scouts alone.

[acco40]

For tens of thousands of years certain segments of our society WERE EXCLUDED from certain things and they WERE NOT HAPPY.

 

Yes, some prefer the company of their own gender for certain events. My view is that parents should be welcome at all scouting events but that the parents need to adapt to the scouting environment, not the other way around. If you need to "tie a mother to a tree" maybe she needs to be kept from attending further camping outings but to ban all females is going to far in my estimation.

 

What my troop does to any parent that attends a majority of the camping trips and wants to "meddle" is to "threaten" to make them SAs. The parents quickly back down and get in line with such a potent threat. {I am only half-way joking on this one.}

[Zorn Packte]

For tens of thousands of years certain segments of our society WERE EXCLUDED from certain things and they WERE NOT HAPPY

 

Do you have any proof that women were not happy when they were excluded from hunting the giant bear?

 

I don't recall ever hearing a man complain about being excluded from a baby shower, bridal shower, or any other female type ritual. It seems that the primary role of the modern woman has become to complain. Maybe they should be worrying about raising the children instead of building a career.

 

 

 

 

[sctmom]

"It seems that the primary role of the modern woman has become to complain. Maybe they should be worrying about raising the children instead of building a career. "

 

Oh, oh, oh. I'm glad you live in a perfect world. Some of us don't. Maybe some men should focus on keeping a job and not laying around the house drinking beer. Maybe some men should focus on keeping their ....nevermind, some youngsters read this board.

 

You seem to think that women and men having choices in their lives is a bad thing. Wanting equal opportunities and equal pay for equal work is NOT complaining. Men also get discriminated against, yet if they "complain" that's okay because they are men?

 

 

:::walking away from this thread:::

 

 

[dan]

SIGH

What year is this? 1960? (i have a feeling that some folks here miss the good old days)

 

"Had a stereotypical mom on a campout this weekend. I had to threaten to tie her to a tree before she'd leave the scouts alone."

 

That was me the first 6 months into the BSA program (i am a slow learner so shoot me!) except i ain't no mom!

 

In my experience the sex of a person has nothing to do with if they get the program or not.

 

Does someone sit down with the new parents and explain the program to them? Without throwing out buzzwords and 3 letter acronyms? (my bet is NOT) yet they are expected to get 'it'.

 

Air mattress who gives a rats butt! If you are worrying about matching sleeping bags (probably bought them on sale and got a good deal, but whatever you do, do not look for the positive) and air mattress you probably do not get the program either.

 

 

[Jerry]

"Air mattress who gives a rats butt! If you are worrying about matching sleeping bags (probably bought them on sale and got a good deal, but whatever you do, do not look for the positive) and air mattress you probably do not get the program either. "

 

Dan, you really need to keep threads separated - I do quite enough to get myself into trouble without people taking my posts out of context, thankyou.

 

My matching camp gear comment was under an entirely different thread, and was merely a personal opinion that it's a little creepy when a family shows up looking like the bobsey-quadriplets. It was not a criticism of the parents, the scouts, nor their understanding of the program.

 

Regarding air matresses (I believe I specified motorized air matresses,) yes, I feel that a parent who brings too many luxeries on a campout not only doesn't understand the joys of camping, but makes it difficult for leaders to encourage boys to partake in a genuine, outdoors-roughing-it experience.

[rlculver415]

I agree that this thread has turned in such a way it really belongs in "Issues and Politics". Nevertheless, I just can't resist another comment.

 

I AM a stay-at-home mother. I bake the cookies, keep the house, do things the working moms can't do because they don't have the time. I don't mind, I like doing this and I like helping out the working moms. Fellas, there are many reasons women work - and enjoyment/relief from boredom is a minor consideration usually.

 

What I really found objectionable is found in Webelosmom's 2nd post:

 

1. "Relief at not having to participate." - So good, it's your choice, moms. No-one forces participation at Scouts. So go home! But allow those that do want to participate do so.

 

2. "Agreement that female adults, adolescent boys and camping equal potential trouble" - Just what are these folks saying? Either that the female adults can't behave in a moral fashion, or the boys can't, or both. In any case, what an insult! In fact the parents insult themselves, and confess to having failed to raise their sons in a decent manner. They also tacitly indicate that the troop is unable to follow either the Scout Oath or Law.

 

I have heard, and read news accounts, of more cases where the male adult leaders were the sex offenders. I have yet to hear this about the female leaders, but do recognize the potential exists. It is too narrow a view to assume the risk exists only with women around, however.

[Rooster7]

rlculver415,

 

My wife stays home with the kids. She does the majority of the housework, cooks most of the meals, and home schools my four children. One of which has now gone on to college. Having said this, I have nothing but respect for the "old fashioned" stay at home moms. They work plenty hard and we all know it (or should know it).

 

"Agreement that female adults, adolescent boys and camping equal potential trouble"

 

I may have missed it, but I never saw this argument presented.

 

[LauraT7]

Boy, I LOVE a good argument! - but I think this is getting way off the track, and I may have missed some points, too.

 

Youngblood -

I think what you are saying is that whether the moms are there to "look over" you guys or not - you'd rather they not come 'cause you're trying to figure out who and where you are NOW and the moms kind of put a damper on things?

 

Am I anywhere near close to your meaning?

 

I wonder if you and your friends ALWAYS felt this way - of if it was something that grew - from you and your friends growing older and testing your independance (and I'm not talking survival camping skills)I mean wanting to be on your own, emotionally, as an adult, in all things. Sometimes kids feel they have to PUSH the adults away to gain some perspective on themselves and find out who they are. Maybe for you and your friends, that means pushing the moms away. THAT I can understand.

 

i don't have to like it, but I can understand it.

 

A blanket rule eliminating all moms on all trips for all boys - THAT I don't get.

 

Maybe when you were the age of my son (12)you didn't feel that strongly against moms, maybe then you didn't mind the moms so much. or even liked having them around.

 

Maybe all you had the opportunity to know was the kind of mom who felt "roughing it" was a hotel without room service.

 

Maybe you would feel differently if you camped with the moms in our troop. and maybe you would have a good time, but still want to be on your own sometimes.

 

Kids grow at different rates - and i think that's where scouters have to tread carefully and get a feeling for when to lead and when to back off. Every boy is different - not all 12 yr olds want mom along, and not all 17 yr olds want to exclude her.

 

it's a tough call for parents - and leaders.

 

I don't like blanket rules. one size DOES NOT fit all. And discrimination of any sort rubs me the wrong way.

 

I guess I have to accept the fact that for whatever reason, some boys don't want me on campouts. But I would much rather they make the choice based on whether they wanted my company, and not on my gender.

 

 

 

 

 

[Webelosmom]

Rooster7:

 

"Agreement that female adults, adolescent boys and camping equal potential trouble"

 

This was part of a post (page 1 or 2) in which I listed the various things that the moms I've spoken with on this issue had to say.

 

[YoungBlood]

"I think what you are saying is that whether the moms are there to "look over" you guys or not - you'd rather they not come 'cause you're trying to figure out who and where you are NOW and the moms kind of put a damper on things?"

 

Yes, this is a large part of my reasoning. I believe boys should learn to become more independent. Moms are generally seen as a comfort blanket. Whether you are seen or not for the whole camping trip you are still there. For instance, a person who wanted to truly experience wilderness survival would not bring matches. Even if the matches were for just in case...He would know that he had the matches and automatically be comforted.

 

"Maybe all you had the opportunity to know was the kind of mom who felt "roughing it" was a hotel without room service"

 

This isn't the case. I have met plenty of moms who probably have more outdoor experience then most guys. Come to think of it, one such female in our troop never went camping with us. She believed it was better for it to be just the guys. She was one the most active leaders in our troop and she never went camping with us(except for the occasional family camp trip).

 

Also, you mentioned if I felt this way as a younger boy too. Well to be honest, I never really wanted my mom to come camping with me. I don't have a bad mom, I love her to death and she is the greatest. However I never felt like I needed her nor wanted her to come hang out with my guy friends with me. I obvisouly can't say this to be true for all boys. I can say that the boys in my troop felt that way and nobody should have a problem if we limited trips to males only.

[YoungBlood]

"And discrimination of any sort rubs me the wrong way."

 

Why do you think this is disrimination? We don't allow girls to join BSA either. Do you think that is discrimination? Excluding somebody is not always discrimination.

[yarrow]

Maybe they should be invited. Venture is enormously popular and is a mixed group. I imagine there are the occassionaly F/M interactions but most Boy Scouts I know are respectful and open minded.

[Rooster7]

Just a point for clarification -

 

Actually, "excluding someone" by definition, is and always will be discrimination. However, to be accurate (and I'm sure this was YoungBlood's point) - discrimination does not have be hateful or without logic. Christian churches don't allow Jews or Muslims to become members unless they convert. When a women's bathing suit model is needed, most hire a woman (thank God!). Men's bathroom attendants are usually men (women can be thankful for that). These examples don't correlate to our discussion well, but they make the point that discrimination is not always hateful or without logic. In short, just because something can be labeled as discrimination, that doesn't necessarily make it wrong. We need to examine the justification. Is the intention to hurt women? Per the viewpoint of the boys, do they gain anything by excluding women? Does the boys' explanation demonstrate malice for women? I think before any charter organization accepted such a policy; they would have to examine these answers closely.

 

[RobK]

What's wrong with a group of men and boys having time together without women around? I doubt there are many men who want to actively deny women or girls the right to do things in a group without men around. And I really don't believe that the idea is to actively deny women any opportunities to camp.

 

The presence of even one woman changes the group dynamic. It's a subtle change and women won't generally be aware of it since they can't know what it's like to be in a group of men without women. In fact men often aren't aware of the change. But that change is there.

 

I believe it is good for boys to do things together without women or girls around. I believe that it is good for boys to do things together with women and girls. BOTH experiences are vital. I can't explain why this is so just yet, but I firmly believe it.

(This message has been edited by RobK)