By the way....moms aren't allowed....

[LauraT7]

Thanks Scoutmom - you're right, i WAS talking about my ex -

(and while your ex and mine are probably not the same, they are probably soul-brothers!)

 

And wasn't there someone above who commented on mis-interpreting someones position by using only part of someone's quote?

 

I don't qualify ALL males who want to go off on their own as neaderthals, etc. Nor do I want to change OUR troop (which DOES encourage Mom participation) or someone else's troop that does not - Except in the case where there is no choice for the boy or his Mom.

 

In the begining of this post, webelosmom said that ALL of the troops in her area did not allow Moms on campouts. that doesn't give anyone a choice.

 

I would think that part of the reason troops are visited and chosen by a boy is so that he can choose one according to HIS needs. If he does not want his mom on campouts, he should tell her. My son would! I know boys in our troop who DO NOT want THEIR moms on campouts - but they seem to enjoy the company of the 3 moms who regularly camp with our troop - often seeking them out for a problem or for fun, over the men available. If a boy or his family WANTS an exclusive male-activity troop, they can choose one that operates that way - though, for the life of me, I can't understand why they would!

 

I think too many are making LOTS of generalizations -

 

that ALL the boys would prefer not to have any moms on camputs - some do, some don't

 

That ALL women would "fluff up" or ruin a campout - by being easily offended, freaked out by dirt, germs and bugs, wanting to 'baby' their kids, etc. again, some do, some don't.

 

Why ARE the males so defensive about being without females around? Why do you fel you have to escape the females?

 

if it's : "Well, sometimes the men and boys might be around the campfire, and they might be talking about things that the moms shouldn't hear."!! (From a reason given by a troop in WebelosMom's original post)

 

then I think someone needs to read up on their BSA youth protection program - I can't think of ANYTHING that could or should be discussed between men and boys IN A SCOUTING ACTIVITY that couldn't be discussed in front of mom, also!

 

If it's because you feel they "cramp your style" or because you don't feel comfortable around women - then that's a personal issue - not a scout issue.

 

The world is full of all different types of people. half are female. i can't see anything the boys have to gain by excluding half the human race?

 

I can see LOTS of good things they can learn by being exposed to a variety of trustworthy adults of both sexes, other than their parents. Men (in general) don't have an exclusive ability to understand boys better than Women do. SOME adults, have a connection with SOME kids. It isn't a one-size (or sex!)-fits-all kind of thing.

 

Our troop is a younger-age troop - most of the boys are 12-14. I would expect that as they get older, THEY will be planning trips and activities that will eliminate my participation (I'm not the high-adventure type). As my son gets older, there are things he prefers to do with his friends, and things he (& his friends) like to include me on. But he still asks me to go on scout campouts with them - and as long as HE wants me to - I will!

 

 

[sst3rd]

It truly is good to hear all of these scenarios and opinions. Different Troops, different programs. I said this on another thread that was talking about Webolos retention being 50%, and that in some people's opinion, that was unacceptable. I stated that I wish our Troop had that problem, and that we would fix it, but we haven't seen a Webolos graduate from our Pack in over three years (yes, we're working it). So, when I hear all of these thoughts on all male and/or women leaders, I again remonded myself of the fact that our Troop has to aggressively recruit all available and qualified adults to be leaders in our Troop, in order to maintain our excellent program. Men and women are needed to meet BSA requirements. It's not that we don't have a real choice, we have an excellent mix of qualified and dedicated leaders, men and women.

 

sst3rd

[DrBeado]

A while back Twocubdad quoted scout policy as: All aspects of the Scouting program are open to observation by parents and leaders.

 

If this is true, how can even a CO prevent moms from going on the campout? Someone stated that the CO could request that dads instead of moms should go. But where does that leave all the single-parent families?

 

It seems to me that a troop may be able to legally set up a "no female leaders on campouts" policy, but I cannot see how they can prevent a mom going as a parent but not a leader.

 

We have been going around and around for 6 pages on this issue, but it seems to me that if this is in fact an accurate quote of scout policy, there is really no room for debate (the fact that some CO's and troops have such policies in no way means that they are correct. Anyone who has read many threads on this forum see LOTS of examples of incorrect application of scout policy).

 

DrBeado

 

 

[KoreaScouter]

If a troop or CO has a policy that's not supported by BSA policy, a leader has several options, to include changing troops, appealing to District/Council, or legal action. Personal decision on whether it's worth it.

 

Only BSA policy regarding females on outings I'm aware of is that they must have separate accomodations unless it's husband/wife. We had a female leader (since moved) who went on many of our outings with us...no problem. Now, she was an outdoorsman (outdoorswoman?...no, outdoorsperson?...ah, whatever!) so was very low maintenance, and did not have a son in the troop so was not a helicopter. If those problems exist with female leaders in other troops, those are training problems, not gender problems.

 

KS

[james_clegg]

" If those problems exist with female leaders in other troops, those are training problems, not gender problems. "

Now we have the real problem identified "Training"

 

 

JC

 

[acco40]

Reading the now six pages of comments I had to alternatively laugh and cry. First a couple of points,

 

1) There is no BSA policy that says men have to be allowed on camp outs.

 

2) (For Yaworski) - Leave no trace policy does not want you to pee on a tree either. The salts from your urine are very attractive to animals who will lick/chew the bark and damage the tree. Pee on a rock instead.

 

I've seen just as many men as women "baby" their sons on a camp out. My personal policy (I'm a male Scouter) is that I do not attend my son's first few camp outs (including their first summer camp) because they need to get that experience without mom or dad. It is very difficult to be seen in the eyes of your son as SM/SA instead of mom or dad.

 

There are specific rules and policies that need to be adhered to if females are present. Parents who attend can be an asset or a problem regardless of their gender.

 

An interesting problem is when the youth do not want females (mothers) on camping trips. I think a good question to ask is why. I have noticed that the youth of today have taken modesty to the nth degree compared to when I was a youth (30 - 35 years ago). Is this because of our society's fascination with sex, sex crimes, etc. although it is less pervasive now than 30 years ago? Who knows? I am not aware of any reason that I would consider legitimate thatthe boys may have with respect to adult females on the trips. That said, I think the adult females need to adapt to the BSA environment, not have the boys adapt to the female presence. I don't see this adaptation so much as behavior modification as the use of latrines, cooking techniques, personal hygiene, etc.

 

I would be very wary of any organization for youth that did not allow observation by either or both parents. How can you exclude a single mother from observing what goes on with her 12 year old son on a camp out? You are asking her to put a lot of trust in adults she may not know very well at all.

 

[Rooster7]

1) There is no BSA policy that says men have to be allowed on camp outs.

 

No, but it would be counterintuitive for a program that wants to mentor boys so that they may become men of character.

 

2) (For Yaworski) - Leave no trace policy does not want you to pee on a tree either. The salts from your urine are very attractive to animals who will lick/chew the bark and damage the tree. Pee on a rock instead.

 

Yaworski's point was a minor one. Regardless, just to the stir the pot and to let off a little steam (hey, those metaphors mix rather well), I think "leave no trace" is very over rated. Also, while it may be something BSA encourages, it isn't a bold type policy.

 

I've seen just as many men as women "baby" their sons on a camp out. My personal policy (I'm a male Scouter) is that I do not attend my son's first few camp outs (including their first summer camp) because they need to get that experience without mom or dad. It is very difficult to be seen in the eyes of your son as SM/SA instead of mom or dad.

 

I agree with the intent of this message, but I took a very different approach. I went on all the early trips as an ASM. I rarely approached my son on these trips unless there was good reason. In other words, he knew I was around, but rarely saw me. Consequently, he had a sense of security for those trips, but soon learned that my presences was not required.

 

There are specific rules and policies that need to be adhered to if females are present. Parents who attend can be an asset or a problem regardless of their gender.

 

We agree again.

 

An interesting problem is when the youth do not want females (mothers) on camping trips. I think a good question to ask is why. I have noticed that the youth of today have taken modesty to the nth degree compared to when I was a youth (30 - 35 years ago). Is this because of our society's fascination with sex, sex crimes, etc. although it is less pervasive now than 30 years ago? Who knows? I am not aware of any reason that I would consider legitimate that the boys may have with respect to adult females on the trips. That said, I think the adult females need to adapt to the BSA environment, not have the boys adapt to the female presence. I don't see this adaptation so much as behavior modification as the use of latrines, cooking techniques, personal hygiene, etc.

 

Okay, if the issue is a matter of modesty, then we agree again. However, if the issue is - the boys want it to be a males only cluband again, I emphasize if it's the BOYS IDEA, then I think its acceptable. This assumes, as I've stated previously, the CO is willing and has the resources (enough adult males). It's their troop, and as long as it's a matter of building bonds between males and not bashing women, I see it as being legitimate.

 

I would be very wary of any organization for youth that did not allow observation by either or both parents. How can you exclude a single mother from observing what goes on with her 12 year old son on a camp out? You are asking her to put a lot of trust in adults she may not know very well at all.

 

I hate to argue exceptions because they rarely become a reality. There are two single mothers in our entire troop (of 54) and neither one wants to camp. However, if it was different (they wanted to camp), I agree that the troop should make an exception. Make EXCEPTIONS for EXCEPTIONS, but don't create troop policy for exceptions.

(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[YoungBlood]

"Okay, if the issue is a matter of modesty, then we agree again. However, if the issue is - the boys want it to be a males only cluband again, I emphasize if it's the BOYS IDEA, then I think its acceptable. This assumes, as I've stated previously, the CO is willing and has the resources (enough adult males). It's their troop, and as long as it's a matter of building bonds between males and not bashing women, I see it as being legitimate."

 

Thank you, this is what I have been trying to get across through all of my postings. However, Rooster does a much better job of getting the point across than I do! I am no longer posting on this thread because most people refuse to see this point and automatically assume it is because we think women baby kids! No, I don't believe moms baby their kids anymore than the dads do! Look I am 18 year old guy that belonged to a troop that had moms camp on some trips. All I am saying is I like it when it is a male thing only. So does my troop for the most part. If the boys want it that way then I see absolutely nothing wrong with it.

[DrBeado]

I told myself that I was not going to post to this thread anymore, but the following recent comment made me change my mind. "However, if the issue is - the boys want it to be a males only cluband again, I emphasize if it's the BOYS IDEA, then I think its acceptable."

 

Are you saying that it is OK to send the message to the boys that it is acceptable to exclude women? This is the same attitude that leads to country clubs and the like that exclude women (and thus exclude them from a location where many business decisions are made over meals, golf, etc.). This attitude leads to the "good old boys club" syndrome that we are just now getting away from in society. This is the WORST of rationales for excluding women from campouts; the modesty issue is much more valid compared to this.

[Rooster7]

NO, I'm saying its okay if boys to want to spend time with other boys. It's okay for them to say how the troop should conduct campouts, because it's their program.

 

As for women being excluded, let's understand that we are talking about a BOYS program for BOYS. And guess what, MEN use to be BOYS. Portraying this idea as some kind of prelude to instruct sexual discrimination is asinine.

 

[DrBeado]

So I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this issue. I think it DOES send a message that it is OK to discriminate against someone because they are female, even if inadvertantly. We have enough trouble in this world because of these attitudes without reinforcing them in any way.

 

 

[YoungBlood]

Well DrBeado, If excluding moms sends a negative message what about us excluding girls! Do you think that girls should be allowed to join? Perhaps you do, but that doesn't really matter. I don't think that excluding girls is telling the boys to discriminate nor do I think excluding female adults would tell them that either! Why is it acceptable for other groups to exclude people but not us? Do you think it is alright for Christians to have a Christian only club or Muslims to have a Muslim only club. What about women? Are they allowed to have an women only club? I have no problem with these groups having limited membership? I don't think they are discriminating either. Do you?

[acco40]

"This assumes, as I've stated previously, the CO is willing and has the resources (enough adult males). It's their troop, and as long as it's a matter of building bonds between males and not bashing women, I see it as being legitimate."

 

I want to make sure I understand your phrase "It's their troop." I'm guessing you meant that it is the boys troop. Many people are mistaken when they say the troop is the boys. It is not. The Charter Organization "owns" the troop. It is not the boys troop. That fact is unquestionable. If you meant the their to describe the CO/COR, you are 100% correct.

 

If they (youths) do not want females present, they can take their wishes to the adult leaders and the CO/COR. However, what do you do when 85% don't want them, 15% do? Should a simple majority "rule?" The issue is fraught with danger.

[DrBeado]

Time to move this over to the "issues and politics" forum. We have gotten so far afield from the original question. I sense that we can debate this forever and not change anyones minds. This has gone from being a debate over how to deal with the practical issue of what to deal with you come upon a "men only" troop to a series of rants about our pre-existing biases (and I mean both sides of the issue).

 

Enough. Nobody is going to change their minds on this issue.

[Rooster7]

Agreed. Hope no one took it too personally (including myself)...