By the way....moms aren't allowed....

[ScoutParent]

Mothers are generally the primary caretakers of a child when they are young; as they mature and gain independence they seek time without their moms tagging along. I just see this as a natural progression and a step towards independence. Got open those wings a little and let them go. Doesn't mean that I don't enjoy a close relationship with my son; I think if anything it is closer because I know when to give him the space he needs to grow both as a young man and as an individual. Certainly if there were no qualified men willing to lead the troop, I would step in but ideally it should be men mentoring boys.

 

Being a US Army veteran and I female I am comfortable in my abilities and don't need to make a point of it at BOY Scout camp outs. Let the men lead the troops if they do a good job and spend a little time doing something special for yourself. Might as well get used to it a little as soon they will all go onto their own lives and if we've done a good job, they'll be secure, independent, young men.

[Mike F]

I have sons in two different troops -- one has a few female SAs and the other has an explicit policy that Boy Scouts is a "guy" thing and has plenty of men to help out. After observing both for a while, it's obvious that things change a bit with moms in camp. While one or two are thoroughly professional, others will occasionally turn on the female charm, etc.. The second troop includes mom and the rest of the family during occasional 'family' campouts so they can enjoy watching their son/brother/husband doing his thing. While I recognize and celebrate the women who step into the arena when men won't/can't, I believe it's healthy for young men to get away with the guys if they have the opportunity.

[YoungBlood]

Mike F and Scoutparent, I couldn't agree more with you. I believe what both of you are saying is absolutely true.

 

Now Webelosmom, You said "2."What the boys want"? My son just wanted me to come along, maybe once. I

camped with him when he was a Cub and a Webelos. He wanted me to come

with him because he actually likes his mom around! (Yes, I'm sure it

will wear off soon, it's already starting to.)"

You just proved my point for me! You say he wants his mom around and it is already starting to wear off. He is a young scout in the troop and there are many older boys who already would like to get away from mom. While, your boy may not mind you being around plenty of other boys may and your boy will be one of them very shortly. Now, when I said the program was created for the boys I did not mean that it was boys only. I mean that the program was created to do what is in the best interest of the boys. In my opinion and as you see many other troops believe having males only on camping trips is the best thing. So, if you don't like it, find another troop. There are many troops out there and all of them differ in policy. So find a troop that fits your liking. But please don't think having males only on camping trips is a horrible thing, because it is not. I believe trying to change a troops policy like that would be wrong. They have their beliefs and I personally support them.

 

 

[ASM1]

Are we allowed to attach files in this forum? I want to publish our charter contract to dispell this garbage being pumped into this debate about a CO having a choice of who attends campouts. There is a ton of BS being pumped into this forum by people who only wish they knew.

 

If we cannot attach files, then I will post on our company web site so it can be read. The BS has to stop!

 

ASM1

[Webelosmom]

 

"But please don't think having males only on camping trips is a horrible thing, because it is not." I don't recall stating or inferring anything like this.

I also have yet to hear that this particular troop decided on this policy based on the boys' wishes: this may or may not be true. Regardless, I never mentioned or suggested that they should change policy.

 

"I am comfortable in my abilities and don't need to make a point of it at BOY Scout camp outs."

Boy, now I remember why, until recently, I remained a "lurker" on sites like these.

It's a sad thing that people can't exchange different points of view without

resorting to put-downs or false implications.

I had hoped a scout-based forum would be above this.

 

Even if my reasoning was, indeed, my insecurity in my abilities, and I really thought I needed to make a point of proving different at Boy Scout campouts, that isn't the point here. At issue is whether such a policy is fair and

in keeping with BSA policy.

 

 

[LauraT7]

First I want to say clearly that the following is simply MY perspective and MY point of view. I do understand that other moms and dads may feel differently - especially those in traditional 2 parent families.

 

I am a single mom - I often work 50 -60 hours a week and only have my son every other weekend. His dad does not participate in any of Jon's scout, school, or church activities. If Jon participates in anything, it must be on my time with him. If scouts were "male only" I would only see him one weekend a month! and Jon would have NO parent involvement in scouts!

 

Part of the reason I got Jon into scouting was because of the opportunity for him to know good, strong male role models. (not neanderthals who talk only in sports lingo, act "macho" & are threatend by women on their turf - he gets enough of that crap from Dad)

 

But part of it was for the same reason many Dads introduce their sons to scouting - because they want their child to experience the fun and adventure of scouting, and to share it with them. I grew up in scouting too - and have alot of experience that benifits ALL the boys in our troop - not just my son.

 

if our troop had a "no moms" policy, my son would not have wanted to be in it. We enjoy each other's company, and he wants me there.

 

That does not mean that I hoover over him and tuck him in every night. Because he is ADHD, he has needed reminders at times, mostly about his medicine. But this past year, that has hardly been the case - I hardly see him on trips, or at least not more than some of the other boys he hangs with. He has become very capable of managing for himself or doing without!

 

Many have made comments about "male bonding", using a handy tree and crude humor, etc.

 

there is plenty of opportunity for "male bonding" within the patrols own campfires and activities. Adults shouldn't be in the middle of patrol stuff anyway - except for maybe an occasional cruise through to guide when needed -like at mealtimes.

 

Trees and boulders get regular "waterings" on campouts I go on, too - the males just go a few feet further into the bush, and the females just make ALOT of noise to warn anyone if we stray from the paths.

 

Bodily functions and noises are handled in either a humorous or matter-of-fact manner, depending on the situation. REAL moms of boys are not phased by farting, belching or crotch scratching. It's part of the territory if you have a boy. Jon knows what is aceptible or funny while camping, is NOT appropriate at church. I would hope that those "male role models" would encourage the boys to watch their language and behavior anywhere and with anyone.

 

My Dad was the co-leader of my Girl Scout troop in Jr high and High school. his presence was welcomed by the girls in my troop - they loved having him along - and we got plenty of "girl time" even with a man along.

 

if a parent is disruptive to a troop outing then they shouldn't be there.

 

But if they are folowing the scouting guidelines, then they should be encouraged to participate. Studies have shown that a child who has an interested parent(s) participating in ther life and activities has a much higher chance of finishing school, avoiding drugs and alchohol, and becoming a usefull member of society. and their sex shouldn't matter.

 

 

 

 

 

[sctmom]

ASM1, I apologize, let me clarify. CO's have the right to choose their registered leaders. Others can go camping that are not registered leaders.

 

 

Laura, do we have the same ex-husband? LOL

 

My 11 year old wants me to go on campouts but then I never saw him when I went. Oh, unless he wanted more money! I don't plan on going on every scout campout (if he goes back to scouts). But he was not yet 11 on his first one! He would HATE for his dad to go on the campout. He sees his dad because I make him. His dad is a big whiner when camping. He would be the one sitting in the car listening to the football game during the campout.

 

I also want my son to see some good male role models. Men who keep their jobs, who do work around the house, who do what has to be done, who admit when they are wrong, etc.

 

I don't do Scouting to be with my son. I volunteer to make sure there is a scouting program available to my son and all the boys in the area. I camp to encourage my son to camp.

 

 

[ScoutParent]

 

Webelosmom, please don't start a quote halfway through a sentence or thought---sort of is misleading and turns it into something it isn't. No put down was implied. Read my posts again and tell me why you assume that. I empathize with the way you feel but I suspect that it is more your feelings than your son's. The boys seem to have an easier time going without us than we do letting them go. No put down implied just an observation.

 

The idea that moms are great for cub scouts and off limits in boy scouts was offensive to me too. Ideally, I think men should get more involved in the cub scout level and women should stay involved in boy scouting just in different capacities.

 

I know of no other mothers who enjoy the closeness with their child that I do mine and he enjoys the time without me just the same. The suprising thing is I've found that I enjoy it now as well. Then he tells me all about his weekend when he gets back and is happy that he got to experience independence while still enjoying the security of a loving family waiting at home.

[Rooster7]

ooops.(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[Rooster7]

ASM1,

 

I want to publish our charter contract to dispell this garbage being pumped into this debate about a CO having a choice of who attends campouts.

 

No offense, but I've seen your earlier statements and I don't think you have a leg to stand on.

 

LauraT7,

 

Part of the reason I got Jon into scouting was because of the opportunity for him to know good, strong male role models. (not neanderthals who talk only in sports lingo, act "macho" & are threatend by women on their turf - he gets enough of that crap from Dad)

 

I really resent this line of reasoning. Especially when most folks are contending that this is an issue of the boys not wanting their moms hanging around on campouts. You're misrepresenting our position. As for men being "threatened by women on their turf", that's a cheap ploy. While you're at it, why don't you call me - homophobicthat's another nice label. It too avoids the crux of the argument and falsely portrays the other side.

[YoungBlood]

LauraT7, I never said moms shouldn't go because they baby their kids or hoover over them. In fact I would agree that men are just as guilty of it as women. However, this doesn't change my case or anybody elses case for having males only on trips. If you don't like the troops policy find another troop instead of insisting that it should be changed. Also, I am offended and frustrated that people keep bring this kinda nonsense into these conversations "(not neanderthals who talk only in sports lingo, act "macho" & are threatend by women on their turf - he gets enough of that crap from Dad)" So basically you believe that all males who want to spend time with just males are neanderthals? I say this because this is what you are applying and it is not a fair thing to say. I am none of those things you listed above and yet I wished my troop had allowed only males on it's camping trips. It is frustrating because I sit and think about what I am typing, trying to convey my thoughts the best I can, and I get this kinda response that has nothing to do with my case for Males on camping trips!

 

[ASM1]

Rooster7

 

I have both legs to stand on and as a Chartered Organization, I also have a vote on the Council. Tell me, what is it you have to stand on other than your diatribe? Back it up, or back it out...

 

ASM1

[Rooster7]

First, reference Bob Whites posts. Hes pretty good at quoting BSA references and probably has some examples better than I.

 

Nevertheless, BSA allows charter organizations to use the program to promote their own values. So long as the CO does not violate BSA policy or the Scout Law, they are permitted to create policies that reflect their goals and objectives (which may or may not be a stated goal of BSA). For example, Mormons and other church sponsored groups sometimes will not permit camping on Sundays. Thats their policy, which reflects their values. Likewise, if a CO wants to establish a policy, which edicts only men can go camping with the boys, then thats their prerogative. This policy would not violate any BSA national policy.

 

From the BSA FACT sheet on Chartering Organizations:

 

Schools, community and religious organizations, with the help of the BSA, organize Cub Scout packs, Boy Scout troops, Varsity Scout teams, Venturer crews, and Learning for Life groups for children and youth. They manage these units and control the program of activities to support the goals and objectives of the chartered organizations.

 

As for my diatribe, I am surprised you viewed it as such. I was merely defending my stance. Youre the one that characterized my position and others as this garbage being pumped into this debate. Likewise, in regard to LauraT7, I was just responding to her attacks. She was the one that characterized folks, as being macho acting Neanderthals who are threatened by women. Its pretty ironic that you would accuse me as being the one on the offensive.

 

I hate to askBut Bob help me out here. What other BSA references support the view that the charter organization may write policies reflecting their values so long as they do not violate stated BSA policies and values?

[sctmom]

Hey GUYS! You REALLY missed Laura's point! She wasn't calling YOU a neanderthal, she was saying that her ex-husband was. She knows there are men who are NOT and that is the men she wants being role models and leading the scout troops. She never said or implied that wanting just guys on a trip made you a neanderthal.

 

She said

"Part of the reason I got Jon into scouting was because of the opportunity for him to know good, strong male role models. (not neanderthals who talk only in sports lingo, act "macho" & are threatend by women on their turf - he gets enough of that crap from Dad) "

 

If you inferred something else from that, back up and don't take it so personally.

 

We want the positive male role models and male bonding. But so many times we see the guys who don't want the women around because they want to talk dirty and have farting contests.

 

Also, amazing how when you make generalizations about moms, that we are all supposed to take it in stride. Yet when Laura comments on a specific type of man, you get all in a huff.

 

[Rooster7]

sctmom,

 

Your point is valid. So, I may have misinterpreted Laura's intentions. My point was: Proponents of this policy are not necessarily Neanderthals who feel threatened by women. If Laura is in agreement, then I apologize. Otherwise, I guess I will have to accept it as her opinion and respond accordingly.