By the way....moms aren't allowed....

[YoungBlood]

ASM1,

I don't think you get my point. Even if she shows men up on the trails she will never be one thing...Male. Men can relate to young boys better than any female ever could. This is because we have been there done that. This is the same for girls, women know them better than us. Please tell me what is wrong with "guy time"? Why can't we have one weekend a month with just guys?

[yaworski]

"Why can't we have one weekend a month with just guys? "

 

Because it ain't PC.

[Bob White]

ASM1,

I'm not quite sure what spirit you meant that comment in. Does it really bother you that I understand the program? This isn't rocket science. The answer to almost every question asked on this board is in a pamphlet or handbook. I read the books and practice the methods they teach. If you wouldn't want a board member to understand the company then not only am I glad I'm not on your board, I am relieved that I'm not a stockholder.

 

Bob White

[benny]

Maybe I'm spoiled by the ladies that we have in our troop that help out. They don't interfere with letting the boys be boys. When it gets late at night around the campfire they will sometimes back off and sit in a seperate circle and talk. To me it's a matter of how much you want them involved. I have spoken to the them about giving the boys their time and they accept that. I would much rather have them assist than some of the men in our troop.

 

By the way... when we go it doesn't matter who is with us, we still get all the body noises and we never leave a tree in want of water

[ASM1]

I have no problem with "Guy Time" But how do we accomplish this "Guy Time" in a Venture Crew with "GIRLS!" Yuk!!! You guys need to get with the 21st century. You want "Guy Time" spend some time taking your son to a football game, or baseball game. You make the time and decision to spend some quality time with only your son. If your in a group like scouts, live the policies, don't bend them to fit.

 

ASM1

[sst3rd]

Two points:

 

1) Bob's point of the CO having direct say in adult leadership, as in no female leadership, is nothing new. This was discussed in my Basic Leader Training back in the 70's.

 

2) What seems to be missing in this discussion, is the fact that some Troops (big or small), simply didn't/don't have enough trained male leadership to run successful Troop programs. I've had to recruit women leadership for our Troop, simply because there was no "Dad," or if there was a Dad around, he was always working (usually at his golf swing).

 

In our area of Virginia, women are very involved at all levels, and have been for many years. I saw the increasing involvement years ago, again, because there were NOT enough Dads getting involved !!!

 

I do want to state, however, I do agree with the comments made by YoungBlood. My brother and I were Scouts in the early 70's, when there was exclusive male leadership. I don't remember one female leader on any level. "Guy time" is important, but a lot of Troops wouldn't be in existance today, if the Moms hadn't steped up years ago when needed. Thanks MOMS !!!!

[DrBeado]

Hey, there's a difference between giving the guys some space (reasonable) and prohibiting mom's from camping (while evidently legal, a poor message to send to the boys). It sounds like the latter in this instance.

 

Besides which, if the troop is boy-led, ALL the adults except those with specific duties (read SM, etc.) should be keeping their distance.

[red feather]

Welcome to the newposters. Jerry,Youngblood, Benny,DrBeaco, etc. welcome to the fray.

 

ASM1-- Camping without coffee?? How dastardly!!!

 

Youngblood-- decent points but female precence does give male leaders leaverage for proper behavior.

 

Moms on overnight that have gone with us must/should understand that they in a male oriented activity. A little dust,ash, etc does not mean the meal is ruined, etc,etc. If a mom wants to go on overnights I would hope that she would understand what the purpose of the overnight is , not a getting away but as been stated a bonding of boys to leaders that they may not have the opportunity to have otherwise. Overnights are scout time and PC may not be followed, but that is part of growing up. Let the moms camp but do not change the program intended except to ensure the proper decorum.

 

YIS

[yaworski]

". A little dust,ash, etc does not mean the meal is ruined, etc,etc."

 

Gotta laugh. I remember a campout, it must have been with the Cubs because it was a couple years ago, when my smoked sausage jumped out of the bun, off the plate, and hit the dirt. I picked it up, brushed it off, and prepared to resume eating. A mom with us was aghast that I'd eat it. First she tried to force me to take her food so I wouldn't eat "the dirty food." That failed so she declared that she had lost her appetite and didn't eat her meal. All the while I was eating, she kept mumbling, "I can't believe you're eating that."

 

If I had had a second sausage, I would have dropped it as well just to irritate her.

 

 

[sctmom]

Yaworski writes:

"If I had had a second sausage, I would have dropped it as well just to irritate her. "

 

ROFL -- good one Yaworski.

 

When I camped with the troop in the spring, there was a serious problem with one patrol getting the dishes clean. I was standing nearby as they went at it once again. One boy washed a spatula and as he was handing it to someone to dry, it hit the ground. A couple of the boys started groaning about having to wash it again. The ground was covered in pinestraw. The kid with the towel kept saying "hand it to me!!!". He calmly wiped it good with the towel and put it away. I had to walk away and laugh.

 

The statements that have been made as to why moms should not camp are generalizations. Quit attacking Bob White because he states the rules.

The BSA does not require you or even encourage you to have female leaders in Cub Scouts or Boy Scouts. The pack or troop should be meeting the goals of the CO. If the CO has a goal of a male only mentoring program, then that is what they can have.

 

About women not liking dirt or body noises or certain subjects--- some dont', some can hold their own with you guys. I had those "oh no, not dirt" moms in my Webelos den. Their boys NEVER camped. They also did not go on to Boy Scouts. They had their sons afraid of dirt. Such a shame. I'm the type who knows the first rule of camping is that you get dirty, your food may get dirty (10 second rule applies), males pee on trees (just not near the tents and cooking area please), we all make body noises, boys will be boys, men talk about things I don't, etc. Also, some women talk about things I don't care to talk about.

 

Someone made a comment about men at Tupperware parties and baby showers. Uhhhh, men are Tupperware salespeople now days. And lots of wedding and baby showers are for couples.

 

The adults should not be hanging out in the patrol areas on campouts. When with the troop, I didn't walk up on the patrols unannounced. Also, I let burbing contests happen in my van but no other body noises contests in the van.

 

 

[Rooster7]

You want "Guy Time" spend some time taking your son to a football game, or baseball game. You make the time and decision to spend some quality time with only your son. If your in a group like scouts, live the policies, don't bend them to fit.

 

ASM1,

 

1) Some of us can't afford to take their kids to a professional (or even college) football or baseball game.

 

2) Spending time with your son in Scouts, seems like a reasonable way to find some "guy time" with your son.

 

3) There's a difference between "father and son time" and "guy time". The first is one on one and more intimate. The second is a group thing and more about male camaraderie.

 

4) There's no BSA policy that states that women have to be on campouts.

 

5) You're addressing someone (Youngblood) that IS a son (not a dad) and he's only one year removed from the program.

 

6) His thoughts (which you described as not being with the 21st century) are those of a 19 year-old and happen to reflect the way most boys feel in his old troop.

 

7) If Youngblood has a son that he wants to spend quality time with, then I'm in for a big surpriseI'd be a grandfather!

 

8) It appears that he wouldn't mind women being excluded from campouts if there was enough qualified male leadership. However, his old troop allows women on campouts and they are treated as equals (as they are of course) at all troop functions.

 

9) His only point was - often the boys do not want women to be on campouts because it creates a different environment. Whether or not the women are to blame, is not the point. The boys just like the idea of being "with the guys" and exuding some testosterone.

 

10) My guess is, most boys in most troops feel this way. If it's not commonly known, I'm willing to bet it's because - one, the adult leadership never asked, or two - if they did ask, the boys were intimidated and refrained from answering honestly.

 

If Scouting is suppose to be for the boys, and this is what the boys' want, why would it be wrong for a CO to create such a policy?

[Jerry]

ASM1: your concern that I might be afraid of being "shown up" by the females could't be more off the mark. We had one godmother accompany our troop once, and she kept up the with the menfolk admirably - running through the brambles on compass courses, trying (successfully, I might add) to start a fire without matches, and sleeping in the dirt. Alas, she was only visiting for the one campout. If more of our moms were like her, maybe I wouldn't be such an advocate for the male-exclusive campout.

 

Instead, we have moms with motorized air matresses, moms that are afraid of squirrels, and even a mom who wanted some of the boys to fan her on a hot day. While this last example is particularly innappropriate, they all serve to illustrate the amazingly un-guylike atmosphere moms bring to a campout. Heck, event those that try to stay out of the way still manage to act like, get this, MOMS!

 

[mom22scouts]

It's not a southern thing, or a Texas thing. It happens in other areas as well. I'm in the midwest and my son's troop only wants dads (or other male relatives) to go camping with the Troop. I've heard the "male bonding" comment from our leaders. Personally, I don't really want to go camping, so it's not a big deal to me. But there are some moms who want to camp and backpack - why shouldn't they be able to go?

 

We also don't have any women in Troop leadership - even as committee members. I have more of a problem with this as many of the Cub Scout leaders, including myself, are moms.

 

[Rooster7]

I reiterate:

 

If Scouting is supposed to be for the boys, and this is what the boys' want (no moms on campouts), why would it be wrong for a CO to create such a policy?

 

I'm just curious to see if folks are going to remain consistent. Personally, I don't have a problem with moms on campouts (so long as they refrain from "mothering" their sons or other boys). However, I think if the boys wanted this policy, the troop leadership would have to consider it.

 

[eagle90]

While our troop is fortunate to have an adequate amount of male leadrship, we do have quite a few females on our committee in key positions. We do not forbid women from camping, but we have never had any that want to join us either. We recently had our annual family campout with moms, dads, and siblings present, and it does defintely change the camping environment having the females along.

I have asked our scouts about this and it seems the older the boys are, the more they want a "male only" atmospehere. We have 12 high school agers and a lot of them said "Thats why I go camping - to get away from mom!" Not PC, but probably true! If I remember back to my days as a scout, I would have probably agreed with them! Hope mom is not reading this!