Den Size

[grmaerika]

Is there a hard and fast rule about the number of boys allowed in one Den? We just had our JSN and got 6 news boys from our local Catholic school, and might get 8-12 total from there , total. Our Den only has 3 (possibly 4) boys, and we did not get anyone on JSN from our public schools. I was Den Leader last year, but have to step down due to work. We recruited a Den Leader from the Catholic school bunch, and we have a mom from last year who is willing to assist. Our Cubmaster wants to keep all the Catholic school bunch together in their own den since they have such a high number, and keep our little group separate. I'm wondering why can we not just have a super large den? That way we would have all the parental support we need. I'm willing to help out as much as I can, and the other parents seemed super eager to join in the Scouting experience. So,any ideas on Den size?

[ScoutLass]

I don't think there is an actual written rule, but it really is best to split a large group into smaller groups in my experience, and for several reasons. First, boys at this age feed off each other. One kid having one of those days causes most of the kids to go off the wall. Manageable when you have six boys, not so much with 12 boys. Smaller groups just work best for most of the activities. Also, while it's great that parents want to help, one person is going to still get stuck with the vast majority of the planning and record keeping. Not so bad for a few boys, awful if you have a lot.

 

With numbers that large, you will end up with frustrated parents and scouts as everyone tries to coordinate, figure out whats going on, and get the attention of the leader. Most large dens I've seen are only down to a couple kids by the end of the year because most drop due to this frustration. You also end up with a very burnt out leader.

 

If you get all the boys you think you might, you're going to end up with close to 16 boys. That's nearly a full classroom of rowdy, excited boys and their parents. Honestly, that's almost three dens worth of boys. The optimum den size is between 6 and 8, and 8 is pushing it. If parents are willing to step up and help out one leader, it shouldn't be a stretch to find another den leader. I also wouldn't keep the Catholic boys separate, but integrate the two groups together then split the dens, but that's just me.

 

The way we handle it is have a couple den meetings with the existing leadership and the great big group of boys. Parents are asked to attend. By the second meeting, the den leader has a good idea of who can be a good leader and has the time to run the second den, and we proceed with splitting it off. The current den leader also gets an idea during these larger meetings of which boys work well together and which would best be separated into different dens, which helps too.

[grmaerika]

Thanks for your reply. That is a huge help. That is along the lines of what I was thinking, at least splitting it into two groups, or like you said, possibly three. I like the idea of meeting all together to see how we could split it up. I would love to mix the schools because the Catholic school parents are all eager, and have involved Dads. All I did was ask the first Dad I met if he wanted to be Den Leader and he said "Sure!". I'm not sure how this will all work out.I really feel we could get other Den Leaders from the Catholic school,but this year I have to concentrate on working, and am unable to commit to the Den leader position.My co-leader is already volunteering for everything at our school and does not want to add den-leader to the list.Our school is majority immigrant and minority, so it has alot of challenges.Thanks for your input, I'm going to suggest what you mentioned.

[83Eagle]

There are no rules, only guidelines and good ideas.

 

How old are the boys? That makes a huge difference. You might also have success with one big den for some activities, but then utilize two patrols...er, sorry, "named dens," for small group activities. Have them pick a name based on the patrol patches...er, sorry, "den emblems" you can buy at the scout shop and sew them on the right sleeve.

[Scoutfish]

it is SUGGESTED that most dens are from 8 to 9 boys until they are Webelos , then it is suggested that a den be 6 to 8 nboys.

 

Now back to the real world.

 

Our pack made a rule that a Den will max out at 14 boys , and if two dens of the same rank have less than 3 boys each, they will merge.

 

Now, if a den has 15 boys and the DL has 3 ADL's and everything is running smoothly...we will not do anything.

 

So basically, we have a size in mind, but will look at each case openly and competantly.

 

The whole reason we did this was because we had a Den with 24 boys in it and the DL and his wife were adamant that they "Just couldn't " split up the boys.

 

Problem was, we had to split the boys into three groups just to get anything done. Boys would be missing some awards and pins because paperwork was a train wreck. My son earned his Bear rank 3 times! How's that for keeping up with advancement?

 

I'd say as long as the DL and ADL are comfortable, things are progressing smoothly and there are no issues or problem...then size should be up to the DL.

 

 

[grmaerika]

All helpful advice. Thank You.

[SeattlePioneer]

Personally I have a bias with den sizes of 4-6 Scouts.

 

Smaller dens are easier for parents to manage, making it easier to recruit den leaders.

 

With two or more dens, you can have a den leader who comes up with a meeting program for all the dens, which the individual den Leader or Assistant Den Leader in each sub den then carries out.

 

A BIG added advantage is that you can easily arrange competitions between similar dens as part of the program, which boys enjoy and usually find highly motivating.

 

With large dens of 8-18 boys, maintaining order is hard and finding leaders is usually a lot harder too. Dropout rates from big dens are more likely to be high, in my experience, since boys will tend to be neglected or picked upon more often.

 

 

I led our district Tiger Twilight Camp this summer with twelve boys. I let boys choose which boys they wanted in their den the first evening.

 

I asked for and got parents to be the Den Leader the first two nights for each of the two dens.

 

The third night, I got no volunteers. I merely said, "Well, we need to have Den Leaders before we can go to the BB gun range..." About ten seconds later I had two den leaders!

 

I put together the program for each day of the program, but the Den Leader for a day carried out the program.

 

Each Tiger Cub Den made their own flag and had their own den cheer, and we had competitions between the two dens each day.

 

Having two dens was far superior to having one den of twelve.

 

This was all done in two evenings and one afternoon of program.

 

I have two main purposes in mind for the Tiger Twilight Camp:

 

 

1. To show the boys and parents what a quality Tiger Cub program should look like and feel like.

 

2. To give parents experience in leading a Tiger Cub Den so they are more likely to take on that responsibility at their pack.

 

 

I was at a recruiting night for a pack last night, and the Tiger Cub Den Leader was in full uniform. He was one of the parents at the Tiger Twilight camp.

 

Before the recruiting night he had five Tiger Cubs in his den. When we were done last night, he had twelve. I recommended that he form two dens, especially since he will very likely get still more boys.

 

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

[grmaerika]

Everybody sounds alot more organized than us. I'm going to suggest this sight to the new leaders. Thanks again for the good input.