Lion being Reborn?

[83Eagle]

I've learned here that you can't win against the scouters who don't like cub scouts, period. Either they argue cub scouts put on lame arts and crafts programs that bore boys to tears so everyone drops by the time they reach the age for boy scouts, or they claim that molycoddled boys can't hack it as true scouts and quit when they find out boy scouts is not Webelos III, or they complain packs put on programs that are too active and leave the boys nothing to look forward to in boy scouts so they drop when they get there out of boredom. So if cub scouts in general is a bad idea, it doesn't surprise me that the idea to add another year would be met with disapproval.

 

With that said, I really don't know if Lion is a good idea or not...it's already hard to design pack activities that are suitable for Tigers yet interest Webelos.

 

What I do know is that girl scouts do not blame low retention of older scouts on the activities of the younger program and, as far as I know, have no intention of dumping their kindergarten program. Just sayin'...

[shortridge]

The GSUSA and BSA organizational structures are in no ways comparable. I'd doubt you can even easily compare their retention rates.

 

Whereas BSA has boys at age 10 move to a new organization with new leaders, new awards, new advancement process, new outdoor opportunities, new adult training and an entirely new structure, GSUSA uses the same basic system all the way through. It may be somewhat disorganized and give BSA Scouters used to the CO model heartburn, but it's pretty seamless from the girls' perspective.

 

If GSUSA were to use the BSA model, girls would move from being "Girl Scouts" to "Preteen Scouts," with a complete change of emphasis and organization. In some places, they'd have the opportunity to move up to an optional "Young Woman Scout" program.

[NJCubScouter]

I hope the BSA does not go national with a kindergarten program. I think many of the Tigers are "too young" to be in such a program as it is, and they are in first grade. Now the packs are going to have a bunch of five-year-olds... just too young in my opinion. And yes, Girl Scouts have Daisies. One of my daughters was a Daisy (she quit after her second Brownie year if I recall correctly; my other daughter quit in the 7th grade, whatever level that is.) I thought that was a little too young as well, but there is also a slight difference in maturity level at that stage, in favor of the girls. I just don't think this is a good thing for the Cub Scouts.

[83Eagle]

I conceded to the fact that the GSUSA and BSA are different animals. However, girl scouts do not eat their own. You don't have to read too far into these forums, or spend too much time among scouters, to see the disdain by some for the cub scout program. Well respected posters here have wished to bid the program, quote unquote, "good riddance." In this thread wing nut bemoans that with a Lion program there would be "no one moving up to the troop."

 

Ok, fine, let's use the oft-cited-in-these-forums example of baseball then, rather than GSUSA. T-ball starts in preschool here and schools field about a dozen teams. As the years go by, more and more kids drop as they refine their interests and abilities. By the time we get to high school, we have one team. Talk about attrition! Where are the calls to do away with T-ball?

 

If our Pack is not doing well recruiting, I look in a mirror and work harder. In contrast many troops I have dealt with do little direct recruiting at all and simply wait for their "feeder packs" to cross boys over...then complain when the numbers aren't there.

 

If your troop is not being as successful as you would like in it's recruiting, try harder, and quit blaming the cub scouts. The intranicene squabbles help no one.

[Austinole]

It's a good idea. I hate having to turn away kindergarten boys at our school roundup. As long as the activities are age appropriate, it's all good. Just like Tigers it's a parent/child program.

[Basementdweller]

Eagle

 

Last year we lost a couple of boys to a karate class that met on the same night we did, why?????? I ran into one of the moms a couple of weeks a go and she laughed at me.....

 

 

At Karate, she drops her son off and walks next door to the starbucks and relaxes for an hour.

 

At cub scouts she is expected to stay and help.......easy choice for a mom who is tired from working all day.

[jtswestark]

Youre not going to win that battle, basement. Parents that dont want to be involved wont be. In fact, this should make people happy that love to rail on about Baby Sitters of America.

[AvidSM]

My son was in the Tiger cub program 17 years ago. It was very simple and required very little work from the parents. There was one book and it had iron-on transfers to create the tee shirt uniform for the boy and his tiger parent.

 

Back then, the program helped recruitment because it was easy, fun and a good introduction into scouting. The families that enjoyed it were more likely to continue onto a more structured program for the following year. Parents that saw the benefits of scouting on a small scale were more open to taking the next step with its increase in commitment.

 

The Tiger cub program is much more complicated now. Lion cubs looks like a return to a simpler introductory program to get more boys hooked on scouting earlier.

 

[jtswestark]

Thats a wonderful point Avid, I remember those days too and thought the whole thing was silly. The iron-ons started peeling off after washing it was hysterical. We just tried to keep the shirt together to get through the year!

Ive seen this happen in every activity Ive been involved in soccer, baseball, you name it. Theres always a group of parents pushing to start earlier and earlier. The orange Ts werent enough, they wanted full uniforms. They wanted it more like Cubs so they got more awards. Simplicity be forgotten, next thing you knew it, full blown Cub Scouting started a year younger. And now well add another year? When does toddler-Scouts start?

[Jeffrey H]

My son was in the Tiger cub program 17 years ago. It was very simple and required very little work from the parents. There was one book and it had iron-on transfers to create the tee shirt uniform for the boy and his tiger parent. . I just finished a year as a Tiger Den Leader.  There is still just one book to follow, very little work from the parents, and was EASY and fun.  Nothing complicated about it.

[momof2cubs]

Basement: at the very very very 1st den meeting of the wolf year, the dad of a new boy came up and asked if it was ok if he dropped him off. We said no. He stayed for that meeting and never showed up again.

 

If a parent has that mind-set nothing will ever change it.

[cfnunn]

First off why is it such a huge problem. Has anyone that has posted comments been in this program. I am not talking about units that did the trial In the Northern Star Council. I am talking about the actual parents that their boys were in the trial. Chances are there are not many that have posted. Wing made a comment about losing 20% from Lion to Tiger. Your point is what? I am a Webelos 1 leader (I was Bear Leader last year) and had 10 boys at the start of last year. At recharter I had 9. Once the new year starts I will have 8. Wow I just lost 20%. I have experience with this program. No I am not in the Northern Star council. The school my son went to in Kindergarten had a Pack and that year they got permission to offer a program for the Kindergarteners called Kinder Pups. Since I am a former scout I jumped on the opportunity. There were a total of 5 boys that joined. Here is what we did as Kinder Pups. We met 1 night a month. we got to make a necker and slide (the boys were encouraged to wear them- and THEY DID) We got to participate in the Pinewood Derby. We learned the Motto, Handshake, and Sign. Every year the pack would go camping and have their graduation while at camp. As Kinder Pups we were invited also. Of the 5 only 1 went (My Son) He graduated to Tiger. The whole weekend we was included. His graduation ceremony was just like all the other boys. When the new school year started we had 6 tigers (5 of which were Kinder Pups the previous year). The program was disolved because noone wanted to help with it (the Scouter that ran it the year my son was in it was now a Webelos 2 Leader and was busy with AOL). We moved and found a differnt Pack but in the same District. My son is now a Webelos 1. The other 4 are no longer in scouting. Last year i ran into the Leader that started the Kinder Pups and asked him looking back at it was it worth trying the Kinder Pups and he said "YES" I asked why? and he said is your son still active and I said yes and he said it was worth the effort. I think we get caught up in the numbers and percentages on how many crossover to a troop. If 1 boy crosses over and stays with scouting be it cub or boy then as a leader I have done my job. That leader 4 years ago introduced scouting to my son on a very limited and basic level and now 4 years later he just started Webelos 1. Do I think starting at Kindergarten is a good idea yes. One other bit of information that I did not share I am a single parent (dad). I dropped out of scouting when my parents got a divorce. As a Den Leader half of my den is comprised of single parent homes. And of the 50% from single parent homes 3 of the 5 the parent doesn't stay for the meeting and of the 5 3 are single mothers. As Scouters and as Scouts we are mentors to the boys that are in our Pack/Troop. In Boy Scouts the younger members of the Troop look up to the older boys for leadership and guidence. 1 boy can do a lot if given a chance even if that boy is in Kindergarten. When that Kindergartener goes into first grade and becomes a Tiger he tells 1 of his friends and they join too. they both move up to Wolf and bring a friend to Wolf Den now there are 4. Those 4 have a blast and as Bears they each bring a new boy. Now we are at 8 those 8 as Webelos 1 have even more fun tell a friend and that friend joins now you have 16 Webelos 2's getting ready to crossover to a Troop. So again why is it a "bad idea". My son is a product of exposure to cub scouts in kindergarten.

[83Eagle]

Basement, it's a bit OT but to respond to your point, when I recruit I tell the parents that if your son is in cub scouts, you are in cub scouts and you are here because you like doing things with and spending time with your son. I tell them that, not to sound negative, but if they want to drop their son off for an hour and show up once in a while just to watch him do stuff, they should really try little league because they will not be happy with cub scouts--their son will be thrilled, but they will be unhappy.

 

It seems to help.

 

Back OT, after thinking about Lion...I still don't know. It would make sense from a recruitment standpoint because we have to send flyers to all the families, and this way we're not turning anyone away. But, first grade boys are squirrely enough as it is.

 

 

[Engineer61]

>> I understand why.........

>>

>> We get them in Scouting before Little league or flag football starts

>> competing for their time and interest....

>>

>> Do I like it....Not with out other changes......

 

Sorry...you're too late... T-ball and Soccer start as early as 4!

[fred8033]

Lions was a positive experience in our pack this last year. Of the 10 lion cubs, we're getting all 10 back.

 

I also agree with the view of too much coddling. I think that is where we lose too many scouts. Promise adventure. Deliver mundane.

 

I've seen it at our family camps repeatedly. The 4th and 5th graders are bored doing a program setup for the lowest common denominator, tigers and now lions. Each rank needs increased challenges. The best advice I've seen recently is to run Webelos similar to Boy Scouts. Include youth leadership. Include youth planning. Include hikes, camping, outings....