Zorn Packte Posted September 25, 2002 Author Share Posted September 25, 2002 Did the scout show any evidence he knew his stuff? Was the scout confident he had completed the requirements? Outside of the BOR, does the scout show he knows his way around a campsite? If you toss him a rope and ask if he can show Tommy Tenderfoot how to tie a square knot, etc can he? I wasn't on the BOR but I've been around mom for five years in Cub Scouts. She was a Den Leader then Cub Master. Her son managed to gain so many arrow points for Wolf that they went below his beltline. As a Webelos, her son managed to earn all 20 activity pins. Quite often her idea ofr meeting a requirement is very different than mine. For example, if I'm teaching knots, I won't say that you know a knot unless you can tie it long after my instructional period. Her idea is that if you can tie it while watching her, that's good enough. The problem is that not only is she intimidating (she could pull my head right off) she also takes on every job that no one else wants. So no one in authority wants to challenge her for fear of her quitting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acco40 Posted September 25, 2002 Share Posted September 25, 2002 As my favorite announcer would say, Whoa Nellie! It is the Scoutmaster's Conference where the check-up is done to make sure the requirements are met. It is not the intent of the BOR to determine this! My son will make life (I believe) this December and he won't be turning 13 until August. I have not signed one single requirement nor pushed him with respect to rank advancement. If a scout attends the camp-outs, reads his book, participates in fund raisers, service projects, etc. it is quite easy to advance in rank. The main thing that holds my son back is the "time in rank" requirements. I fully support that requirement by the way. Maturity cannot be learned, it needs to be gained. As for Eagle. I DO NOT want him to obtain Eagle before he turns 15.(This message has been edited by acco40) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted September 25, 2002 Share Posted September 25, 2002 Ok, so the mother is a force to be reckoned with, an outright witch. Does the kid know his stuff? Not through the BOR process, just from your observaitons. Is he confident, on outings does he do his share and can he light a campstove, make a cooking fire, cook a meal? Can he use a compass, tie his knots, etc. In short is there any evidence that the scout should not be first class. I understand your reservation, I would have one as well if a scout made first class in 6 months. But it is possible, in fact, its possible to make first class in 30 days from joining, a tough stretch, but possible. Just because he has an "overbearing mother" is no reason to assuem the kid cant do whay he is suppsoed to, even though I have to admit I would also be suspicious. BTW, will anybody in the troop talk to the mother before his Eagle BOR? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorn Packte Posted September 25, 2002 Author Share Posted September 25, 2002 Just because he has an "overbearing mother" is no reason to assuem the kid cant do whay he is suppsoed to, even though I have to admit I would also be suspicious. Knowing mom and son, I would say that he may have passed many requirements by something akin to the Papal wave of the hand method. Maybe I'll ask him to lash something together for me on our next campout. BTW, will anybody in the troop talk to the mother before his Eagle BOR? I don't know if anyone has the courage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted September 25, 2002 Share Posted September 25, 2002 OK mom is a ASM. Is she trained? I would hold a skills camping trip for the entire Troop. Make sure this kid is there. This way, you can find out how much he knows as well as reinforcing what the rest of the Troop knows. Keep mom away from the Scouts. I would tell her the boys need to do this on her own. I had a kid like this only dad was the culprit. Ed Mori Scoutmaster Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10(This message has been edited by evmori) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted September 25, 2002 Share Posted September 25, 2002 It is unfortunate if mom rushed the son through. the only person that loses is the son. I agree that if the SM and the Committee chair and the BOR are satisfied them it really is a done deal. If the Scoutmaster can be convinced it might be a good idea to determine who can test the scouts. The SM conference is not where you restest. Read the SM handbook about the SM conference. Bob White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorn Packte Posted September 25, 2002 Author Share Posted September 25, 2002 OK mom is a ASM. Is she trained? Oh, is she ever trained. She's been through SMF and Woodbadge. Also has been asked to join the District Training Committee. You'd think that she'd be a stickler for proper Scouting but I think that she has her eye on two Eagles for her sons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acco40 Posted September 26, 2002 Share Posted September 26, 2002 Bob White I think your are confused. In the SM Handbook, it specifically states that "the purpose of the board of review in not to retest a Scout". It does not state in black and white that the SM conference is not a place to retest. However, I agree, the SM conference is not the place to retest either. My comment said "It is the Scoutmaster's Conference where the check-up is done to make sure the requirements are met. It is not the intent of the BOR to determine this!" Because the SM conference is the first place a scout goes after he believes he has completed all of the requirements for any rank (through Life), what I met was that the SM can review to see that the requirements are properly "checked-off"; that is completed. That is what I meant by making sure the requirements are met. No, a SM should not test the scout. But I have seen instances where a scout will schedule a SM conference and when the SM reviews the requirements he finds that one has not been completed. It is more of a bookkeeping check-up than a skill set check-up. The SM conference should build on the relation between the SM and scout, not be adversarial in nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted September 26, 2002 Share Posted September 26, 2002 Read page 120 of the Scoutmasters handbook! Bob White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stressbaby Posted September 26, 2002 Share Posted September 26, 2002 My son is in Dr. Beado's new troop. He had "advanced" to within Requirement #8 of First Class within 4 months of joining his old troop. Does he know his stuff? Nope. My wife listened to him complete #5 for 2C: Identify or show evidence of 10 kinds of wild animals. How did he do it? At a patrol meeting he was asked to name 10 different animals. Who asked, then checked him off? The Scoutmaster! Needless to say, the new troop will redo lots of these requirements. This raises the question, which I will post in a new thread: What level of mastery of the material is needed to pass a requirement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorn Packte Posted September 26, 2002 Author Share Posted September 26, 2002 My son is in Dr. Beado's new troop. He had "advanced" to within Requirement #8 of First Class within 4 months of joining his old troop. Does he know his stuff? Nope. My wife listened to him complete #5 for 2C: Identify or show evidence of 10 kinds of wild animals. How did he do it? At a patrol meeting he was asked to name 10 different animals. Who asked, then checked him off? The Scoutmaster! Needless to say, the new troop will redo lots of these requirements. This is the sort of thing that I'm talking about. Although Super Mom probably wouldn't be that bad, she'd go on a walk and point out everything. "Look Bobby, there's animal stuff" Check! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LauraT7 Posted September 26, 2002 Share Posted September 26, 2002 Oh, boy! We have one of these, only it's a husband /wife team and their son is now Star and thinks he can run the troop singlehandedly. Admittedly - he's a good "tester" good at school, too - but doesn't retain what he knows. - he can 'study up' and tell you what he needs to know, but practically? on a campout? Well, last campout he pitched his tent in a gully, hidden by weeds, and got wet and bug eaten and nearly broke his ankle on a root going to the tent at night! Now this boy's Dad wants to be our SM! As for the requirements, well, it's actually "Since joining, participate in 10 separate troop/patrol activities ( other than troop /patrol meetings), three of which include camping overnight." (straight from the handbook) that means at least 3 separate campouts - not 1 week at camp! however, for the rest, if your camp has a good "first class express" program, he could very well complete a large part of his requirements at camp. A big problem in bridging from cubs to scouts is that den mom, ASM or any other position, in CUBS - any adult is "akela" and can sign off on a rank requirement and home/family activities count- in BOY SCOUTS it must be a SM or ASM. Which leaves out most family activities unless the boy can show or explain them to a ASM or SM pretty thouroughly. Our troop has two unofficial policies - as we have adults and committee members active with the troop who are NOT ASM's or SM. There are two instances in the scout handbook with requirements for each rank. ANY adult may sign off on the front that they have witnessed a requirement being met(and most parents don't, anyway) and a ASM or SM will look at that, may ask a few questions, and will then sign off in the BACK of the book. The BACK of the book is the boys official rank record. In rank advancement, a parent of whatever position in the troop will try to avoid signing off on their own child's advancement or badge work. the exception is when that adult is the ONLY badge counselor, or rank expert readily available to the troop. I have to wonder though, at this push to be first class in one year - I understand the retention hype - but don't know if I believe it. Ok, so a kid get first class in one year - now he's finished 6th grade and used to fast-tracking through ranks - 4 mos for Star, 6 mos for life, another 6 to eagle and his project - he could be DONE by the end of 7th grade or ealy 8th grade - WHY?!? What is the big push??? All the boys I've seen who hit 14 and 15 feel there's not much for them to do and go off to pursue other things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted September 26, 2002 Share Posted September 26, 2002 It seems the adults mentioned in the thread are in Boy Scouts for themselves. They seem to forget the 1st word in Boy Scouts is Boy! Ed Mori Scoutmaster Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorn Packte Posted September 26, 2002 Author Share Posted September 26, 2002 So what I'm reading here is "what's done is done." Once a boy gets signed off and the BOR says "Ok," it's over. If the BOR was bribed, there was colusion or conspiracy, or whatever, there is no turning back. Just like a Presidential pardon. The SM did say that he'd look into it. The Advancement Chair got a bit testy and said that he considered it over and done. Doesn't give you a lot of faith in the system :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted September 26, 2002 Share Posted September 26, 2002 Zorn, The system is as good as we the component parts make it. The kid is first class and I am not sure what can be done about that. However, as you alluded to, on the next campout ask him to lash a few things together, have him start a fire or campstove, teach a few knots. In short see if he demonstrates the skills of a first class scout. If he does ok, then all is well. If he cant, now you have real evidence of a problem. Point out the specific skills he lacks to the scoutmaster and other ASM's. "Wonder" aloud how the scout could be first class if he cant do these things. There are many way to make your point. Maybe you cant change this one, but you may be able to prevent a reoccurence. There is an old political cliche and I will paraphase it here "People get the Boy Scout Troop they deserve" If no one will talk to the "mother" no one can complain about her Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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