Canadian Thistles

[Fehler]

So, the local Community Garden is next to a state highway, and between the soundwall and the garden is a hillside with a patch of Canadian Thistles. Service project!

 

But can Bear Scouts pull/cut thistles with any success? They don't need to pull the plants, just cut them down to prevent them from seeding this year. The patch is on a moderately steep berm, walkable but unmowable. Or will they just be hurting themselves too much for the effort?

 

Or how about I forget the pulling/cutting, and just have them "crush" the patch down? More fun, sure, but would it be successful?

 

And I plan on using this as a Leave No Trace service project. How does invasive species removal count in this aspect? Were Canadian Thistles imported for some ungainly purpose, like Buckthorn?

[CalicoPenn]

Hmmm - how to answer without eliminating your enthusiasm.

 

First, Canadian Thistle is indeed a non-native invasive species. It is not native to Canada but comes from Europe and Asia. Like many plants from Europe and Asia, it was imported by immigrants because it was a food and/or medicinal plant familiar to immigrant settlers. Other plants you might know that were imported are Dandelions and Queen Anne's Lace (Wild Carrot). So removal of this plant certainly fits into any removal of invasive species plans. Most states don't just consider it a weed, they consider it a noxious weed. What's the difference? You won't run afoul of any regulations planting dandelions in your garden, but you will by planting Canadian Thistle.

 

The big question is how successful you'll be. The answer is your success is likely to be limited. You're on the right track in wanting to cut them down before they go to seed but Canadian Thistle doesn't reproduce just by seed. Like many perrenials, it will also reproduce clonally, in this case through root nodules in spreading roots. Preventing the plant from seeding won't stop it from reproducing through it's roots.

 

What it takes is perserverance. With herbicides (not recommended to be used with the Cub's around), you'll have better success Perhaps the Bear's could come out and cut/knock down the plants and someone comes by later to do a pesticide application - I'd arrange for the town/village to do the pesticide application, in many states, a pesticide applicators license is required to use pesticides on public land. You should see some good results, but will still likely to have stragglers.

 

Otherwise, with a non-pesticide regime, this is something that could take a few years (maybe even 5 to 10) to get under full control. As you continually knock/cut down the patch, you'll stress the plants to the point where they will eventually no longer be viable and will die off. It may not be the right kind of project for Bear's to do if they've not yet learned the virtue of patience - knock them down this year, and next year, you might have to explain to the Cubs why it didn't work. Or you could hope that they have short memories and won't remember which patch they worked on last year.

 

I think it's a good project if you explain up front that this is going to take a few years of folks doing this to see the thistles eliminated.

[Basementdweller]

We do invasive species removal every earth day. Usually Japanese knot weed, garlic mustard or honey suckle. We usually do it with the County soil and water people or a park naturalist.

 

As pointed out I would see what the most effective method of eradication will be. We cut off the honey suckle, then the soil and water comes back after we leave and sprays it. The boys like garlic mustard the best, but you need to make sure you get the roots too and bag it out.

 

Conservation is a good thing and thank you for teaching your scout it's importance.

[moosetracker]

Fehler - It is a great conservation project, and is a great idea. I do not want to detract from that.. But, it should not be billed as a Leave-No-Trace..

 

The two are entirely different things. Leave-No-Trace is obviously leaving the landscape as you have found it as much as you possibly can, you will be definatly not doing that.

 

Just don't want to confuse the cubbers as to what Leave-No-Trace is all about, otherwise you may see them cutting down branches from trees and thinking it is the Leave-no-Trace method.

[SeattlePioneer]

I'm not much on decorative gardening, but I can work up enthusiasm for attacks on invaisive weeds from time to time.

 

 

I got rid of a patch of bamoboo that was overgrowing a sidewalk I use. I cut it back repeatedly over a period of seven or eight years and it slowly faded away.

 

 

I'll go after English Ivy in a forest from time to time.

 

My current project has been getting rid of a patch of Himalayan Blackberries that was overgrowing a street. They grow like crazy in Seattle, and in August there are thousands of tons of big fat sweet blackberries that can be harvested and are great to eat.

 

The rest of the time they are a nuisance. I went to war with this patch about ten feet by a hundred feet and cut it down last year. Yesterday I dug up a few of the root balls and mowed down the regrowth with my lawnmower. Another year or two and I will have it killed off for as long as I care to keep tending it ---- but it will be back after I am gone.

[Fehler]

moosetracker,

 

I'm just having a hard time coming up with "Leave No Trace" ideas that I can pull off in near-downtown Minneapolis, other than "pick up trash", which we've done to death. The local "Park Service" is a monolithic public entity, I have no idea whom to contact and where about helping with trail maintenance/signage.

 

At least we can discuss "Plan Ahead" and "Respect Other Visitors". I can explain how Canadian Thistles migrated from Asia to Canada, as a warning with "Leave What You Find" and "Trash Your Trash".

 

I had an idea about getting the Cubs to help out cleaning dog poop at the local dog park, as "Manage Your Pet", but I don't think any of the parents would be too happy with me on that.

[moosetracker]

Does it need to be a LNT conservation project, or some fun Activity with LNT?

 

Here is a site with a bunch of activity suggestions.. More like fun & game type things, but I have not read them all, so there might be a project or two.

 

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/TeachingLeaveNoTrace.aspx

 

[Fehler]

The requirements specifically state "Participate in a Leave No Trace-related service project."

 

I've seen that page, and downloaded the 98 page .pdf file that it linked. I got some good ideas for activities, but no ideas for "service projects".

 

Also, that page and the .pdf are referencing the seven "Backcountry Guidelines". Cub scouts Leave No Trace involve the six "Frontcountry Guidelines". Similar, but not identical. I haven't found a training regimen/activity list specifically for the Cub Scout level.

[moosetracker]

Well then I guess you are doing what they want.. to me "leave no trace" and "service project" together are an oxymoron.. A service project improves (but changes the enviroment.. LNT is not to change the environment..)..

 

Although.. with LNT, they do have you take down other man made changes, like removing someone elses firering.. Or the pick-up trash..

 

The weed thing kind of confuses me.. Yes, the weeds are not a native plant, and invasive.. Good to be gone.. but I bet when you rip them out, there will be some homeless bugs, maybe even a snake or chipmonk hole will loose it's protective cover.. Then if you throw poison on it, the bugs & snakes and probably other grasses that grew under the thistles will be even more disturbed.. Maybe other animals if the poisen used is really toxic..

 

But then maybe some bugs lived under the rocks in the fire ring you dismantled, or under the trash you removed.. So I guess there are times that LNT is not really LNT at all..

[kari_cardi]

You could hold a short workshop for your pack families or another group with LNT activities as a service project. Another idea is to hand out LNT flyers at a park, but I suspect that would result in more litter, not less. But 'education' as a service project might work for your group in some form or another.

 

Regarding invasive species, my reading of LNT information outside of BSA seems to indicate that the removal of invasive species is LNT in that you are undoing the harm caused by humans who introduced the alien species in the first place. For Canadian thistle, however, control seems to be best managed by spraying the intact plant immediately before blooming with a glyphosate herbicide to kill as much as the extensive root system as possible. This process isn't very cub or LNT friendly. I'll let you know if it is effective since I have an experimental patch I've been trying to kill by various methods for years.

[ScoutNut]

These thistles are located on State Highway property. Without proper permission you could be considered to be trespassing.

 

There is also the problem that it is on a hillside. Do you want your Cubs rolling down it?

 

What about the disturbance your Cubs will do to the other plants put there to prevent erosion of the hillside?

 

There are plenty of ways to volunteer for Minneapolis Parks. Big cities are not nearly as "monolithic" as you think.

 

Check out some of the information from your Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board -

 

http://www.minneapolisparks.org/default.asp?PageID=76

 

There is a "volunteer" link -

 

http://www.minneapolisparks.org/default.asp?PageID=78

 

There is a "contact us" link where you can find phone, and email info for the Parks and Recreation Board, and various parks, programs, and departments -

 

http://www.minneapolisparks.org/default.asp?PageID=85

 

Contact someone and see what kind of service can be arranged for your Cubs to do.

 

 

[Fehler]

State highway property, but leased to the local community garden, of which I am a member and have permission from the board of the garden. They're organic gardeners, so any use of chemicals is out. I'm not too concerned about "effectiveness", I just want effort. Over time, the sustained effort will become effective.

 

It's not a "hill", its a berm along the highway, with a soundwall at the top. The scouts will not be on the traffic side of the berm, so they are free to roll (save for the thistles).

 

I do plan on working with the Minneapolis Parks Dept (I have political connections with the Park Board) for a larger, Pack service project in the winter in Minnesota (to help get this Pack to realize that scouts don't "move indoors" once the snow flies), but I was looking for a quickie project that I could whip together in a week for our next (First!) Bear Den Meeting.

[ScoutNut]

>>"I do plan on working with the Minneapolis Parks Dept (I have political connections with the Park Board)">"The local "Park Service" is a monolithic public entity, I have no idea whom to contact and where about helping with trail maintenance/signage."

[Eamonn]

I don't know a thing about Canadian Thistles.

I do know that the Thistle is the official flower of Scotland.

When teaching English Scouts about the Union Jack /Flag which is called Union because it is in fact the flag of three countries:

England: With Saint George ad the Red Rose.

Ireland: Saint Patrick and the Shamrock

Scotland: Saint Andrew and the Thistle.

Legend has it that the Romans tried to attack a bunch of Scotsmen at night. So as not to make any noise they took off their shoes. Things worked out great until one roman trod on a thistle and cried out, alerting the sleeping Scots.

 

You don't post how big an area this is?

My experiences with Cub Scout service projects is that most adults see what needs to be done but forget that kids are kids and become bored very quickly. The adults end up doing most of the work and add to this trying to keep an eye on a Den full of Cub Scouts near a busy highway?

The best service projects have taken into account the attention span of the people doing the work.

I'd say that anything over an hour is too much for these little guys.

If you can get a book about Scotland and the thistle and share it with the Scouts it might add a little more interest to this project?

Ea.

 

 

[Basementdweller]

guys guys guys

 

Relax about the road....he posted that there is a sound barrier. which is a 30 foot tall wall of cast concrete in my neck of the woods.......so the boys will be safe from traffic.