Is this legal?

[CubPackComChr]

LisaBob,

As I said we did inform him however he stated he would do it the way he wanted to do it no matter how it was done in the past.

Our treasurer is hard to get ahold of also, and she is not very happy to have the position, I am also on the bank account because we need two people, so that is why I asked him for the money so I could deposit it. He really had no need to open a seperate account, I had offered all along to collect it and deposit it.

I was frustrated with his lack of sharing the information so I stepped back because I just didn't want to deal with another problem from him, but now I have people wanting me to get the information from him and double check his work and now he is complaining that his integrity is being called on.

[BadenP]

CPCC

 

I agree with the others here you created this problem now you see what a poor idea it was in the first place. The ONLY way you can arrive at any solution is to get the COR and IH involved as they are the ONLY ones with the authority to straighten it all out, especially since your pack committee and leaders are seemingly NON FUNCTIONAL.

[CubPackComChr]

Wow...Is all I can say to some of the replies, the Compassion, Positive Attitude and Respect that has been given to my by a few of the responders in this post!

 

Thank you to those of you who responded without blaming me for a situation that I actually DID NOT create. It is how the pack ran things when I became CC and I just followed through.

I did not ask for this man to refuse to give me the information, in fact after the first weekend when he first refused I did tell him that I didn't think it was a good idea that he continue running the event and that he should hand things over to me and I would run the event if he had a problem with it. I even had to call in our UC to talk with him. After the UC talked with him is when I found out he had opened an account to deposit money in. Another leader also found this out and asked me if it was legal? He told me after speaking wiht the UC he would be more cooperative but has not.

 

I had some families come to me and specifically ask me if I would double check everything and then have the CM triple check me because they felt that the totals he gave them for what they earned were a lot less than previous years. I am still in the process of trying to get him to give me all the information so I can do that. In the 5 years that this pack has done this fundraiser, no leader has ever been so controlling and refused to hand over money or information. I need the information now because resident camp money is due June 1st and parents use their scout accounts to pay for that event, and he is refusing to let me do the double check that other parents asked that I do, along with having someone triple check me.

 

I am not quite sure why I am being accused of wanting to flaunt my authority or "screaming RESPECT MY AUTHORITY" but as CC if something does not add up with all of this I am the one that the parents look to for explanation. If that is so I want to be able to have the answers.

I did not realize this forum was a place for people to bash others without knowing them. I am quite offended by some of the responses. Yes the guy volunteered, great, however his job is over, the candy sales is over he should hand in the information and we can say thank you!

 

[shortridge]

If you post in nearly any Internet forum (except perhaps the board of the Society of Super-Polite People), you're going to get a wide range of replies - straight answers, support, flames and answers to questions you didn't even ask. We're no different here.

 

We all learn things every day, and it seems to me this situation has created a lot of learning opportunities for your pack. Clearly the first challenge is to fix the immediate problem of the money and accountability. After that, you as CC need to fix the volunteer recruitment and fundraising system. Whether it predates you or not, by presiding over it without taking steps to change it, you're condoning the way it works. You've gotten good feedback here, and should take it to heart. There's an awful lot of experience represented in these forums, and it can be useful. Set the sometimes caustic language aside and take the advice for what it's worth.

 

One thing I'd suggest is a double-check system for parents. If the money going into a Scout's account is directly related to the volume of product the Scout sold or the amount of work the Scout did, the parents should have records reflecting that, so THEY can double-check the balances and make sure everything is kosher. It should be fairly simple to do that. If Amir is supposed to get .50 from each candy bar he sells, and the sales sheet says he sold 20 candy bars but there's only $2 in his account, the parent can start asking questions.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

[Lisabob]

I can understand why you would step back, with hope that he would respond better to someone else (or if you were in the background). Unfortunately, things didn't work out that way - and in my experience, they rarely do. Here's the thing: you informed him how the pack handles fundraisers and he told you to buzz off, and yet you (plural - not you, personally, but the whole committee) let him run the fundraiser anyway. That's the point at which he should probably have been informed that he would not be running this fundraiser. As has been said, this is a live & learn experience, at this point.

 

A question: Was the amount of money he turned over to you similar to what you would have expected, in comparison to past years?

 

If yes, then close the matter for this year.

 

If no, and if the difference is very large, then it is time to involve your CO as a few posters have also suggested.

 

Good luck with this - one thing I've learned from scouting is that there are a lot of adults out there who are royal pains to deal with sometimes. Keep focused on why you do this (to provide a great program for the boys!) and on how many other great parents you've met, in the process.

 

 

[83Eagle]

ComChr, you will unfortunately find that a few people here compensate for a lack of natural endowment by being big giant ones in cyberspace. If you can learn to separate the wheat from the chaff there is some good info to be gleaned.

[Scoutfish]

I'm not gonna blame you, but I do want to say what I observe from the outside...as you have posted it..with unbiased eyes towards you are the "rogue" DL.

 

THis guy ran the fundraiser as a leader. Okay, if that's how your packs wants to do it..fine, but running an event should be a committee position: PWD chair, Camping chair, Fundraising chair, B&G chair, etc....

 

The chair shoule be apopointed by the CC or voted obn by the committee and/or leadership.

 

Anyways:

 

1) You say he "proceeded to try to be in charge of all of the scouts accounts "

 

So let him try. Handling one thing does not entitle or empower you to take over or automatically run another. Scout accounts should be a treasurer duty. An assit treasurer? Sure, if byou want, but still needs to be a full time accountable position.

 

2)Cashiers checks. WEll, if he opened an account for a temporary purpose, there isn't much need to order a registery book, deposit slips or checks. The bank may have had some sort of waiting period to hand over cash or maybe it seemed simpler toi get counter checks from the bank. Who knows , right?

 

3)" he has a personal thing against me and whenever I ask for any information he questions me back with a question of his own, I answer and he still does not give me the information I originally asked for." So where is the COR, CM and treasuer during this time? Technically, the treasuer should be asking this, but as CC you have the authority here as this is part of the admin side of scouting and not the program side. Get you COR to be present when you do this.

 

4) "but now I have people wanting me to get the information from him and double check his work and now he is complaining that his integrity is being called on."

 

 

All the other parents: You say they will not volunteer or step up and do anything...yet as soon as something happens in a way they do not like..they come crying to you.

 

Tell them they have two choices: step up or SHUT UP! Tell they they either accept what happens from those big enough to step up or they can do it themselves. So far they are just charity in their actions.

As for his integrity, tell him yes... yes it is being called upon due to his own actions and attitude! The soulution is in his hands.

 

5) " I had some families come to me and specifically ask me if I would double check everything and then have the CM triple check me because they felt that the totals he gave them for what they earned were a lot less than previous years."

 

Yeah, I'd tell them this makes total sense seeing as nobody wants to lift a finger or do anything. When nobody makes an effort....not much work gets done.

 

6) Personally, the info is still limited and we are only seeing one side of bthe story so it makes it hard to give an honest answer woiorth anything...but the 2 biggest issues I se here.... and I mean no disrespect in any ways ....is this:

 

YOu are too wishy washy with him. YOpu don't tell him that "it might not be a good idea" You tell him NO! Absolutely not! If he has personal issues with you ..and it causes issues with how things are run and wether he will work with you and the rest of the committee or leadership, then he can not be allowed to run anything again. If the problemn is you..then you need to step down because it hampers the running of the pack..

 

I am not sayin g it's you or him. I don't know. But it's hurting that pack.

 

At the samer time, this guy - who you say has been around a while - may also realize what a bunch of lazy, do nothing but nit pick parents you have.Might be that no matter what he says to them, he'll catch grief.

 

You said the treasuer is hard to get ahold of and doesn't even want the job. WOW! I understand help is not just waitin g to do stuff, but treasurer is a very demanding and stressfull job. IF that person doesn't like or want it, that could be a mathmatical and accounting nightmare in itself. Maybe that's why he wants to run scout accounts. Maybe trhe hard to contact job hating treasuere is screwing thing up, mis-applying funds or scount accounts.

 

Not saying intentionally, but could be accident misapplications of credit for scouits doing whatever, and deposits going to wromng acconts. I'd be mad if my son's scouit account was short when he worked twice as many events and the scout with the biggest account never did anything to help or never showed up.

 

Honestly, the best thing to do is have a meeting with this guy and the committee and only active parents. Tell the ones who run and hide when help is needed that they can go hide again.

 

Then talk to this guy about what he thinks could be done better as far as handling fundraiser and scout accopunts.

 

You may not realize it, but you might be looking at the best fundraising chair/ treasurer your pack has ever potentially had. Ask him if he wants it. Let him run it for a year. You might be surprised with what you get!

 

 

 

 

And I am being honest: Putting myself in this guys shoes, what I am hearing is this:

 

"You are going to do this - PERIOD! You will do it how e say, when we say and do everything we want you to do...but we are not going to help you, nor is anybody else, but they are going to question everything you do.

 

Maybe he is not personally aginst you, but resents the when and how he is expected to do the work.

[BadenP]

CPCC

 

Sorry if you felt my post was too strong, I was not blaming you personally it is your entire committee and den leaders who failed to follow the proper procedures concerning fundraisers and fiscal responsibility and are all at fault. Any advice you get here, outside of getting your COR and IH involved, is only applicable to the next time, that is if your COR and IH do not decide to take control and clean house. As Beavah pointed out to you this is not the place for legal advice. At this point in the situation your own options are pretty limited and if you do not get your CO involved who own the pack and its assets your whole pack leadership could wind up with a lot more trouble.

[Oak Tree]

Legal. Hmm. Fine for him to open a bank account. Fine for him to deposit cash in it. If he already had cash, how is depositing it in a bank any worse?

 

Did he deposit checks? Whose name was on the account? Who were the checks made out to? How did he sign the checks?

 

What types of checks and balances do you have in the normal case? How do you know that someone turned over all the money in the past?

 

I definitely agree it's a problem that he won't give you details. He has to give you details, or the whole thing is a non-starter.

[CubPackComChr]

Oak Tree,

These were store front sales, meaning we had boxes of fundraiser candy that we sold in front of stores such as Walmart in two hour shifts. The parents and scouts would earn an hourly rate for the hours they sold (after the sale is over the profit of all candy sold divided by all hours worked, gave an hourly rate). So each shift would have an envelope they should have been keeping the money in. In the past that envelope would be sealed and signed by the shift, turned in to the person running the event, and then that person would turn it over to the CC and the CC and the treasurer or CM (whichever was available) would count the money, record hours and money and then deposit the money.

This was not done this year, because this leader wanted to do it his own way.

The account he opened had his name on it, not Cub Scouts.

Do I really think he did something illegal? No, not intentionally (still not quite sure on the legalities of opening an account in your personal name and depositing a nonprofit groups fundraising money in it when they have a bank account in the groups name)

The person running the event is just supposed to secure storefronts and be available to bring extra candy to the stores if they run out. The first shift at each store picks up and brings enough candy for all shifts and the last shift brings left over candy back to the "home base". We never ask the person running to figure out or keep any of the money because it is a financial matter and financial matters are only for the CC and treasurer. I think that is why some of the parents were upset, they didn't understand why he was figuring everything out and keeping the scout accounts that they felt were private information. Some of these families have hit hard times and I work with them on rechartering fees and stuff and they don't want anyone other than me and the treasurer to know about it, so I think they felt uncomfortable him seeing and trying to be involved in something financial.

I finally received the full information tonight after a long battle of trying to get it.

Questions were raised because in the past the amount people earned was at the $7-$8 an hour mark, this year it was $6.28 an hour. Families that work this sale hard were shocked by how little they earned this year. So they wanted me to recheck all figures.

A quick look through and it looks to me what happened was that a lot more shifts were scheduled and more people participated in the fundraiser this year creating more hours and a less hourly rate.

However, his refusal to hand things over when all was said and done, and refusal to run it the way it had been run in the past with checks and balances caused a red flag.

It seems like it is always a battle of wills with him. I asked for something so he sent me something else, I point out it was the wrong thing so he sends me another wrong thing. All the while I have several families waiting on all of this information.

Just very frustrating.

[shortridge]

(still not quite sure on the legalities of opening an account in your personal name and depositing a nonprofit groups fundraising money in it when they have a bank account in the groups name)

 

Unwrap your head from this issue, and drop it. He did nothing illegal.

 

Let's look at what he did. Opened a bank account in his name? Legal. Put money in it? Legal. Depositing someone else's money of which he was the temporary custodian? Legal (and safer than sticking it under his mattress). Handed all the money over when asked? Legal.

 

Lessons learned? Develop firm procedures for handling and checking money. Get a for-real treasurer. And make sure this guy knows the rules before putting him in charge of money again.

[DancesWithSpreadsheets]

Well if you can't get the bank account information, one way to get the info you need would be to check with your candy supplier to determine how much product was purchased (and how much, if any, was returned) and see if the sales the DL is reporting agrees with the total.

 

You could try telling him the CO needs detailed reoords in case of an IRS or state audit.

 

Regards,

DWS

[KC9DDI]

One of the advantages to asking questions on a forum such as this is that you have an opportunity to get some unbiased advice. Sometimes, when we look at a situation objectively, our collective advice can sometimes not be consistent with what you want to hear.

 

As far as I understand it, this is the sequence of events:

 

1) An unwilling Tiger leader asked to take responsibility for conducting a fund raising event. This leader has been known to be difficult to work with in the past, yet was given this duty anyway.

2) When it was explained to this leader how the Pack wanted the activity to work, he said that if he was being asked to run this event, he would do things his own way. Yet, he was allowed to continue to be responsible for this event.

3) After the event, it turned out that things did not go as the Pack would have hoped.

 

Honestly, to me it looks like there were ample warning signs that this gentleman was a poor choice to be responsible for this activity. If a leader flat out tells me that he will not work within the Pack's fundraising guidelines, I would definitely not give him the responsibility of running a fundraiser. To be honest, I think that the Pack should not have given him this duty at all. No, you didn't "ask for" him to behave this way, but you also did not seem to take any steps to avert a problem that appears to have been obvious.

 

But nothing can be done about that now. Looking forward, here's some possible answers to some of your questions:

 

Regarding the legality of the bank account business: If you want legal advice, you really need to speak with a lawyer. This forum is in general a great resource for all things Scouting, but tends to be a rather poor source of accurate legal information.

 

As far as how to proceed with financial auditing, and to address the problem with this leader in general, you really need to get your COR and IH involved, maybe with your UC.

 

To address the other parents who are questioning all of this: I'm not totally following how you divvy up the profits from the event, but it sounds like there's a possible discrepancy in the $5-$10 neighborhood per Scout, which to me sounds like it would be well within an acceptable margin. If the parents are truly this "shocked" about it, I would simply tell them that this is another reason why you ask for more parental volunteers and involvement, and, honestly, ask them to step up or shut up.

 

I think the "root cause" of your problem is poor parental volunteering and participation. It sounds like you have a good UC available to you - that person might be able to help you increase the number of volunteers you can draw from. It also sounds like you've reached the point that activities have been cancelled due to poor adult participation - that's unfortunate, but sometimes that's a step you have to take to show that you're serious about needing people to step up and take on some responsibility. But, I think that this situation has shown that you need the right people in the right positions. Forcing people to take on a responsibility that they don't want is a recipe for disaster. Allowing someone to continue to have responsibility for something important despite warning signs that that person is not qualified is also a bad idea.

 

Just my two cents.