Is this legal?

[CubPackComChr]

We do a spring candy sale fundraiser to build up money for the scouts own accounts to help pay for resident camps and such.

Every year we ask the Tiger leader to run the fundraiser (each leader has a different event that they run each year since we have such a hard time getting volunteers)

This year, this particular gentleman refused to share information with me, saying that he is in charge of it this year and will run it the way he wants and that he doesn't care how it has been run in the past. I then found out that he also opened up a bank account (seperate from the one the pack has and also in a seperate bank) that he planned on depositing the money in. He has since closed the bank account but all the money handed over to me has come in the form of cashiers checks from that bank (in all years past the cash from the weekend was handed over to be double checked by me and the cubmaster and deposited weekly), which makes me wonder if the bank account was actually closed.

He also refuses to hand over any of the information now that the fundraiser is over and proceeded to try to be in charge of all of the scouts accounts (I have a few parents that were uncomfortable with this).

My main question is whether it was legal for him to open this account at all?

[shortridge]

Was the account in his name? If so, then yes, there's nothing wrong with him opening the account. Depositing money that wasn't his? That's another issue.

 

Generally speaking, however, you're not going to win any points on the legalities of this problem. Fight this battle on another front. Unless this leader was authorized by the CO to open a bank account for the pack, he shouldn't have done it. That's not a question of being illegal - it's a question of simply not being proper. Your pack has an account, and that's where the money should have gone. You need to be prepared to cut this man loose - get the support of your CO before it goes any further. Either he provides the account information and fundraiser details, or he's gone, no questions asked. You don't play games with money.

 

You need your CO on board no matter what. This money is the CO's money.

[SeattlePioneer]

Hello Committee Chair,

 

 

While I don't approve of the actions of your Tiger Cub Den Leader, neither do I approve of your methods of saddling him with a fund raiser.

 

As Committee Chair, you need to improve your methods of recruiting volunteers. There are a variety of proven methods for doing that which you should investigate and use.

[Scoutfish]

Legal and right are not the same thing. What he did was legal, although not necessarily the right thing to do.

 

Had he oipened the account in the packs name, them it would be a civil matter with the CO and misrepresenting the public IF he keeps any of the money for himself or anything other than what it was intended for. If he does turn over all money to the pack....the worse thing you can say about him is that he is having a un-scoutlike attitude.

 

But still, I'd get to ntalking with the CC and leadership as well as the COR. THis guy may not be the type you want in your pack.

[Eamonn]

"My main question is whether it was legal for him to open this account at all?"

Since 9/11 the rules and laws that deal with banking have changed a lot.

If you need legal advise? I would suggest that this isn't the place to try and get it, talk with a lawyer.

While I'm not a lawyer, I think that a lot might depend on which name was on the account.

Maybe he just didn't want to leave the money in his house?

Maybe he wanted to ensure that this money didn't get mixed up with his own?

Would you feel different if maybe he'd given you a personal check?

There is a lot of maybes.

I agree with SeattlePioneer about having Den Leaders being in charge of Fund Raising events.

The job of program leaders is program.

You post:

"Every year we ask the Tiger leader to run the fundraiser"

Seems to me you got what you asked for.

 

Over the years I have seen a lot of Packs run into problems because of the way money and funds are managed.

While I'm not a fan of lots of rules and regulations. When it comes to dealing with other peoples money there needs to be very clear guidelines.

The Pack needs to have a Pack Treasurer who looks after all the funds and reports at meetings of The Pack Management Committee.

Everyone needs to understand that there is no such thing as Den Funds and everything needs to go through the Pack Treasurer.

Back when I was involved at the Pack level, we found that having a Pack Bank Account where checks needed two signatures along with having four names who were able to sign worked well for us.

Whenever possible the Pack Treasurer tried to only write checks at the monthly meeting. Still there were times when people couldn't wait. Or didn't know the amount needed.

Sign up night was one of these times. We didn't know how many boys would sign up, how many would want Boy's Life. We charged the full years membership fee, but the Council pro-rated the fee. (After the sign up the Pack paid the membership fee out of pack funds from the Pack Bank account.)

You as Pack Chairman might want to meet with your COR and find out how the CO wants the Pack Funds managed and then with the Committee set up guidelines that are shared with the Den Leaders and the parents.

The more open and transparent things are the less problems there seems to be.

Ea.

 

 

 

[Scoutfish]

Yeah, that's what we do too: Every event, every fundraiser...dens turn money into the DL, who records what each scout gave him...but then he turns it over to the treasurer who does the treasuerer job.

 

The treasurer can seperate which money is collected for what, where it gets spent, and the grand amnount of each scouts scout account. Since we sometimes collect upward of $800.00 on a given weekend of fundraising ( one den collected $1,100.64 selling chicken dinner tickets in 5 hours on one Saturday) andf the DL's are not comfortable holding that money - they bring it to me, the CM.

 

And I will track down the treasurer and give her the money as soon as possible. The tresuere gives me a recept of the money which I give back to the DL to show it was all turned in.

 

The bad side to handing over fundraising to a TIger leaders is several:

 

1) You do not want to overburdon and loose a new DL before they hardly get their feet wet.

2) They may not have the knowledge of the more experienced leaders of what ius okay and not okay

to do within the pack, council or CO.

3) As a new leader, they have more than enough on their plate just trying toi figure out how to do the program

4) And this may be the most important one..or not, but....How much do you know about this guy/gal?

 

Are they trstworthy with money..do they possibly have a gambling problem?

 

Just stuff to think about.

 

[Beavah]

Hiya CubPackComChr,

 

There's nuthin' particularly wrong with a fellow opening a bank account. And I think sometimes yeh run into volunteers who are pretty strong-willed, eh? They want to do things the way that they are comfortable with or understand or the way it fits into their schedule or whatever. Lots of times those folks are good, solid, dependable volunteers if yeh let 'em configure things the way they want.

 

So yeh have to decide whether that's all that was goin' on, or whether yeh honestly feel that he took some money.

 

If it's the former, then I think yeh chalk it up as a learning experience and perhaps re-think your policy of how yeh find volunteers, or yeh set up expectations for accounting and handlin' money clearly and well in advance.

 

If it's the latter, then with your COR and IH yeh decide whether to remove him and involve law enforcement.

 

Beavah

 

 

[Basementdweller]

Legal.....yep,

 

Right.....probably, would you have felt better if he put the money in his personal account???????

 

You force a responsibility on him with in his opinion, no guidance. He fulfilled the job to the best of his abilities. I hope he had built in some accountability to protect himself against accusations being made.

 

I am guessing you think there is money or product missing. It is a pretty easy situation to figure out.....see how much candy he bought and see if the total funds handed over is the correct amount for the candy sold.

[acco40]

Legal in the eyes of whom?

 

Did your pack, Tiger Den, or anyone file a unit money raising application with your local council? If not, it was not "legal" in the eyes of the BSA.

[Basementdweller]

heheeheh

 

Legal, the fundraising app is the silly, I file it and never hear anything back. Just like the tour plan......I file it and never hear anything back.

 

Sitting here laughing, so you have a guy volunteering to take care of the scout accounts and just finished running a fundraiser and your complaining.....especially when you just said you cannot get volunteers. So long as the scout account totals get entered into the committee meeting minutes and the fundraising totals add up.

 

 

 

All I can think of here is Cartman screaming "RESPECT MY AUTHORITY"

[CalicoPenn]

If a leader opens up a separate account without discussing it with the rest of the Pack leadership first, I'd say that's a red flag being attached to a halyard.

 

At the end of the event, someone who wants to make sure everyone knows what s/he did was ethical and above board will want to share all the information after the event.

 

If someone doesn't share that information and now refuses to do so? I'd say that "leader" has just run that red flag up the flag pole.

 

Forget legality - start thinking about the first part of the Scout Law - Trustworthy.

 

Personally, I would no longer trust this "leader" and would give him two options - share the information from the fundraiser, or his resignation is hereby accepted. He will either share or leave - and I would take this as a learning opportunity - let it go and improve your financial doublechecks.

[Basementdweller]

We are getting only a smidgen of the information here.

 

I would love to here both sides.

[Lisabob]

The fact that you have no way of knowing how much money was raised, or if it was all turned over to the pack, is a problem. Clearly, this needs to be addressed going forward so that you do not have to deal with this again.

 

As others mention, you probably need a different method of finding volunteers to run your fundraisers. I also agree that this person's behavior (as you have explained it) would give me extreme pause. If there are no other explanations AT ALL, **AND** if he refuses to share the books with anyone from the pack, then I would say I don't trust this guy as a leader. Something here is not right.

 

 

However, I am sensitive to the notion that the guy may have just wanted to keep the money safe. I used to run our pack's popcorn show & sells. There were times when I had several thousand dollars of the pack's popcorn money - in cash - in my living room. Made me very uncomfortable. Yet I did not have access to the pack's bank account, and our treasurer (who did) was a pain to get hold of. Perhaps, if I had thought of it, I might have opened a temporary account to hold all that money. (Of course, I'd have shared the details with the rest of the pack leadership, too)

 

Perhaps it will help your pack to put together a guideline for any fundraisers, explaining how money should be handled. That's better than you just telling somebody. You may also want your treasurer to go over the guidelines with a potential fundraising coordinator BEFORE the fundraiser begins. If that person won't agree, then find a different person to coordinate the fundraiser. End of story.

 

 

[CubPackComChr]

I asked if it was legal because a parent asked me, I had no clue. Him opening a bank account in his personal name and depositing fundraising money in it is in truth strange.

As for pushing him into handling this fundraiser, it was something the committee voted on years ago that each den leader handle an event, (ie pinewood, popcorn sales, spring candy sales, etc.) they chose the candy sales as the Tigers event since it is the last one and they would have a full year of being in the pack before running an event. He was not pushed into it because as I tell everyone if they do not want to run it or can't I would take care of running the event. This leader has also been around for a while, as he has an older boy in the pack and so he was not surprised by any of this.

 

I am not trying to accuse him of illegal things, I just want to be able to pass on answers to the questions that have been asked of me.

 

There are, unfortunately, other things going on here, he has a personal thing against me and whenever I ask for any information he questions me back with a question of his own, I answer and he still does not give me the information I originally asked for.

 

We had to cancel our pack going to daycamp because none of the parents would volunteer (at our council we need to send 1 adult as a volunteer for every 8 boys attending) I sent message after message to parents informing them we needed the volunteers or we would have to cancel in order to receive our money back (council's suggestion to me and they were backing me). This leader did not have his sons' signed up for the event, nor was he coordinating it or have anything else to do with it. He found out it was canceled, demanded to know why and why he wasn't informed and then called council to inquire why I canceled it, he didn't get far with them since they explaned to him the same thing I explaned to him.

So I am quite frustrated with him, however my question was solely to be able to answer to someone else. I didn't think it was necessarily illegal, however I did think it was wrong. After the first weekends sales I did ask him if I could pick up the money so I could deposit it in our account right away and he refused to let me do so (it was soon after I found out he opened an account for the money) If he didn't want the money sitting around his house the solution was simple, turn it in so it could be deposited.

[CCbytrickery]

I think it's perfectly fine to have a leader run an event. Would I hand over the reins of an event that involves a potentially large sum of money to a NEW leader? No. The Tiger leader can help plan a camp trip instead. EDITED TO ADD: I notice you did mention he was not a "new" to the troop leader; however, I would still recommend not handing over complete control to one person. Too easy for bad things to happen.

 

The only people who should be handling funds and the bank account are the treasurer, CM, and CC. No new bank accounts associated with pack funds should be opened BY ANYONE other than the treasurer and CM.

 

Typically, in our store sales, we have one person who brings a set amount of change for use, along with a set amount of product. The adult at the sale counts the product and all money, and signs a form. When that adult leaves, she/he counts the product and money again (including any money from sales or donations), signs the form and has the incoming adult recount and sign. At night, the person in charge comes to collect the money and any product left.

 

If it is a order sale, where orders are taken and paid for, and then later delivered OR if it is a product sale, i.e. where the boys sign out 20 camp cards or 25 candy bars and then return leftover product and/or money, only the treasurer can take the money. The scouts/parents have to sign out product and in the money/leftovers.

 

The CM and treasurer handle the scout accounts, but the CC can be involved. I am not, at this time, because I am just starting the position, and the CM and I are figuring out exactly what he needs me to do/be.

 

Your Tiger leader is doing something that makes me go HMMMM, what is he hiding? There is something not quite right about his actions. I would get the CM and treasurer in on a meeting and request all candy sale records, including sales records (which should have been kept--a requirement of being a nonprofit organization). If he fails to produce them, I would discuss removing him from the position, as he is not following proper procedures, and this could lead to a potential sticky situation for your pack.(This message has been edited by CCbytrickery)