dishonest parents and dishonest leaders

[saschuster]

I can almost understand the parents who turn in a list of 15 belt loops their son earned in a year. They boys want the shiny belt covered in awards. The parent's will half way have the scout do the requirements, the leaders will talk with the boy and in the end, we hand them out. Now, when it's a leader doing it, I have a huge problem with it!

 

This woman has been a pain in my tail since before she handed me her application and let me know, she liked to be in change and do things her way and she would be in the office with me eventually. So not happening! Her and her husband are the assistant den leaders in the Webelos den, they were upset I said assistant because they have all of their "legal" training, whatever that is. She yells are certain boys, she is rude to some of the parents and last night she let me know the boys would be earning their basketball and ultimate belt loops. I told her, unless they were staying late, there was no way all of the boys could earn two belt loops in less than an hour unless she was cheating. I also told her, a trained leader should know the requirements and be the example for the boys and follow them.

 

What do you do with leaders like this? It's hard enough to get parents to step up but I would rather have to take the den myself on nights when their leader is out than have her in there screaming at kids, telling the parents they need to be at meetings every week or not come at all and tearing though requirements without the boys getting the entire meaning and fun out of them!

[pchadbo]

Saschuster,

Not sure if I can be much help but I will be watching for an answer as we had a Bear den leader turn in a list of 15 beltloops for each of her Bears that have been "earned" in the last 4-6 weeks and now she wants to present them all at the pack meeting Fiday. Not sure where this is going. . .

[moosetracker]

Oh the joy of helecopter parents in charge!!

 

saschuster - what is the opinion of the Webeloes den Leader about his two assistants? Any way that when he is out, he could set a strict agenda for her to follow? If he is someone who wants a quality program, you can at least work with him to keep these two on short leashes.

 

Pchadbo - good thing I have to key enter the advancements of Rank & activity pins only for cub scouts in our district, not belt loops.. I would be chewing your ear off if I had to.. That's a large cost for a Pack to absorb, and it is one thing if you feel they earned it, another if you think they did not.. Are you CC yet, or just soon-to-inherit??

 

If you are CC I (with the CubMaster) you might sit down with her and ask how she accomplished so much in so little time, with out having a 24/7 round the clock den meeting for the last few weeks.. She may try to worm her way out of the hole with lies, but it will get her to think about pulling this type of move next year..

[neil_b]

I would concentrate on the yelling issue and not as much on the belt loops. You get into a laundry list of issues and it just becomes too much to deal with.

 

The yelling may seem like a minor issue to some adults, but it can have a ripple effect. As a personal example, I never got into Scouting as a kid, because my older brother tried it and his den mother yelled too much. You lose one boy and you could also lose his brothers and his friends.

 

As CC I think you have the responsiblity to confront this woman about the yelling and make it official. Write her a letter (not an e-mail) and give a copy to your COR and cubmaster. In the letter you will first thank her for her hard work and dedication. Then you will tell her that as CC you are disappointed with the yelling, tell her that this behavior reflects poorly on the entire pack and the CO, and tell her that if she cannot control herself in the future you will start the process to remove her from the pack roster.

 

This may seem harsh, but your responsibility is to the boys and to the CO ahead of any one parent. If somebody doesn't confront her now she will be a thorn for years to come.

 

[liquidzoo]

I agree with neil_b about the yelling, even if it's restricted to her own children it still reflects badly on the den and pack and will leave an unmistakable impression on those boys. Better to get it under control quickly than to let it spiral out of control.

 

On the subject of the belt loops, earning 2 in a single den meeting could be possible (look at the requirements for some of the Academic loops), but I think 2 sports loops would not be possible, even if the group was broken in half with half on one activity and half on the other, then switching throughout the course of the meeting.

 

I recently went to a pack meeting (not my pack) where there were some boys that earned 10 arrow points at the meeting. I don't know what the timeframe was that they earned them in (might have been the whole year, for all I know) but it caused me to raise an eyebrow. I had to count the electives in the Wolf book to see if there even were that many available (there are 12 that could be earned).

 

I'm thrilled for the boys that they earned those badges and can display them proudly, but I question how much they retained if they powered through the requirements like that.

[pchadbo]

Moose,

I am still the soon-to-be and the current CC is uestioning a little about the time frame and OMG 15 each for one pack meeting?!?! can we spread this out a little? So Bear den leader is aware of CC questioning that many.

 

 

[evmori]

These are the kind of leaders you don't recharter.

[AnnLaurelB]

Man, and I felt a little guilty turning in for 1 Beltloop each month for a Den of 6 Wolfies. The other guys weren't earning as many in their Dens, but hey, I built the Beltloops INTO my lesson plans.

 

I'm trying to think HOW it's possible to TRULY go through the requirements for THAT MANY in such a short time.

 

You may be stuck this year, but I suggest your Committee put forth a limit on Beltloops. One Den-earned Beltloop per month (if the Leader wants to), and one (optional) Home-earned Beltloop per month.

 

Be very clear that anyone turning in for MORE than that must pay for it themselves, AND provide AMPLE proof that they did the requirements.

 

(Computer Beltloop: where's the "document" you prepared and printed yourself?" etc...)

[ScoutNut]

>>"Be very clear that anyone turning in for MORE than that must pay for it themselves, AND provide AMPLE proof that they did the requirements."

[AnnLaurelB]

Okay, wait. I know in the Rank BOOKS the Akela's signature is all that's required.

 

And AS it's true that ANY parent can go buy ANY Beltloop they wanna buy for their kid, then I think IF they want the PACK to present a crazy amount of them (especially if the Pack is paying for them), then it's fair to ask for SOME documentation.

 

A quick quiz, or a print out, or a museum receipt or a Library card or SOMETHING.

[kari_cardi]

So what would happen if this leader and her husband were asked to leave? Why did you accept their application in the first place, what need did they fill for the pack? Would your COR and the pack committee support you in asking these parents to step down as asst. leaders?

 

The yelling and irrational/rude behavior with den parents bother me far more than zipping through belt loops. It sounds like the mom feels she can get away with it, that she will be at the top of pack leadership soon enough. Obviously that would be disastrous for the pack.

[AnnLaurelB]

We have a screamer, too. We're asking her not to come back. :0/

[Scoutfish]

WOW! 10 Arrow Points?

 

That's alot. How long did that take?

 

I mean, you have to have 10 electives to earn 1 arrow point. Even completeing all electrives and using qualifying unused ahievements..10 arrow points is alot. Did they build 85 model planes or what?

 

I'd definantly get on about the screaming ting though. Not cool, not welcome, and not in the spirit of scouting.

 

And tell her that having all the training does not make one a leader.They have to be given that spot by the COPr or whatever the usual; leadership process is at the pack.

 

I had my NC certified Fire Fighter level III training, my NC certified Emergency Medical Technition training, and I was Fla Public Safety Water Rescue Technition Level III trained to. This did not automatically get me a job with EMS, fire stations, water rescue squads, or allow me to operate an ambulance.

[Eagle92]

A few thoughts.

 

1) I've seen folks get 4-5 Arrow Points at one time from stuff they did at CSDC. Also remember that while they can work on the electives prior to getting their rank, they cannot get the arrowpoints until they complete their rank. I'll give you an example.Some things I am either uncomfortable talking about in a den setting, i.e. Wolf 11 Duty, or think a better format would be discussing things with parents, i.e. Wolf 12 Making Choices. So those were not done in den meetings and we worked on electives instead. So 4 of my guys are getting 3-9 arrow points form all the stuff they did this past year and from CSDC last summer, yet their parents just signed them off for Wolf this month.

 

2) The sports and academics program is not advancement, and doesn't really count. Yes I think it is important for them to earn what they get, and yes I don't think it's right as it hurts the scout in the long run. But forme it is not as big a deal as the arrowpoints, Webelos Activity Badges, and ranks.

 

3) While yes we must tale the parent's word for the Bo-T-W-Be ranks and electives, if memory serves only the WDL and those chosen by the WDl can sign off on Webelos advancement since we are preparing them fo Boy Scouts.

[qwazse]

Quadruple ditto of what niel_b said.

 

Most importantly, are the boys having fun? Do they feel welcome? Do the adult leaders feel like they are accomplishing things with the den?

 

If there's no fun, if boys don't feel loved, if adults just see their kids "jumping through hoops", it's not a den. You can bring the adults together and say "we want our den back!"