Am I out of line on this one?

[Quixote]

The troop recently had a bicycle campout in the Wharton State Forest (i didn't attend).

 

Leading up to the event, the leaders that were going were concerned with the logistics because the boys couldn't take all the necessary gear on the bikes, the troop trailer was hauled down. This necessitated having someone drive to the camping spot sat. morning and then have them picked back up and brought back to the start of the trail so they could be with the boys for the ride.

 

My response to the problem was - take the gear to the campsite and WAIT for the boys to ride to you (1 eagle scout, 3 Life scouts, 2 Star scouts, 4 first class scouts and 2-3 scouts). The response to my suggestion was "YOU CAN'T LET THE BOYS RIDE THE TRAIL BY THEMSELVES". We're talking about a 10-15 mile bicycle ride in a state forest in NJ - with 12-13 scouts - is this not something the boys can't be trusted to accomplish on their own without adult supervision???

 

Thoughts?

[Rooster7]

Quixote,

 

I understand your point, but...

 

I think, from a safety standpoint, you should have two adults ride with them. Can the boys be trusted to stay together as a group and/or keep track of one another? What if (God forbid), there was an accident? Could these boys administer the proper first aid? If need be, could they ride fast enough to get help? Are we sure these boys would not panic? What if a stranger approached these boys? There are so many things that could happen. While I realize that one of the objectives of Scouting is to prepare these boys for situations such as these, I think we (adults) should still be there for them. I would not risk it.

 

Having said this, I don't think you've committed a crime for pondering such an idea out loud. Personally, I would ride with the boys. At a minimum, if two adults were not going to ride with the boys - as a parent, I'd want to know.

 

[yaworski]

Sounds like much ado about nothing. If you can't trust your scouts to go on a 15 mile bike ride, then you can't trust them to go patrol camping.

 

Are they responsible enough? They should be if Scouting has been doing its job. An Eagle should be mature enough to keep track of a dozen boys for the hour that it would take to pedal 10 miles.

 

Should the parents be told that no adult is going on the ride? Sure. Maybe one or two would volunteer to go along but if they did, how would the Scouts ever learn to be by themselves.

 

 

[Bob White]

This is a good example for the need for the patrol method.

 

If we were looking at one group of 12 to 13 the group is too big for a youth leader to effectively manage,scouts are too spread out for the leader to know the condition of each scout, the physical differences from oldest to youngest make it unlikely that all would have the same capabilities of speed and endurance. I would not send a group like this out even with two adults.

 

However if this were three patrols, a Venture Patrol made up of the Eagle, life and Star scouts, Regular patrol of the Ist Class scouts and a New Scout patrol of the new scouts. I would send the New scouts out first with two adults and a Troop Guide and possibly only do 1/2 the distance(go 2 or 3 miles out and then come back). Next send the Venture Patrol out with no adults, followed by the regular patrol with two adults at the back within sight. That way you have adults riding clean-up should any adults be needed, but they stay out of the patrol leaders way and are not seen at all by the Venture scouts.

 

Different levels of skills and experiences require different levels of adult supervision. You cannot run a troop as a single group. It is a gathering of patrols, each with its own unique needs.

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Rooster7]

yaworski may be right. I do have my "mother's blood" in me. I'd be the first to admit, by most people's standards, I'm an over-protective parent. Still, I have been on a few bike rides (20 to 35 mile range). Bob White is right. There are usually multiple levels of skill and maturity involved. Also, not every Eagle Scout will be responsible or smart enough to ensure no boy is left behind. Perhaps they should be, but I've met a few that were not.

[Scoutmaster Ron]

Definelty have to have adult supervision. As much as we want and need to trust them their are situations that may get out of their control. For insurance reasons isn;t it a must to have adult supervision with the boys throught the trip? (maybe a question for Bob)

[Bob White]

Scoutmaster Ron,

Check out the Boy Scout handbook, The Scoutmaster handbook and the Guide to Safe Scouting. All of them say that a patrol, with the permission of the scoutmaster, can go on hikes and overnight camping on their own with no adult supervision. This has been an element of the patrol method since the beginning of the boy scout program.

 

The leadership skills required of the scoutmaster to develop boy leaders and use of the patrol method can make this possible. But the group described by Quixote in his post is not a patrol. it is not even a troop by the description, it's just a bunch of scouts. And that is not a safe or efficient way for any aspect of the program to work.

 

As I wrote in my first response, had these been three patrols leaving in staggered time there would not neccesarrily be an adult needed with the first group, little supervision for the second and direct supervision for the third. The amount of adult presence is determined by the skill level of the patrol.

 

I recently had a new scout patrol of 8 boys going on a five mile map and compass hike. A parent wanted the adults with the boys the entire way. It was a fairly simple route around the end of a lake. At each mile interval the route would pass a parking lot area. The boys had radio contact with us the whole way. Two adults met them at each mile with fresh water (it was a very hot day). We were confident the boys would be fine and they were never more than a half mile from us. They finished the hike feeling like they had climbed everest. They also grew in teamwork and in sel-confidence. We gave just enough supervision to keep them safe yet let them feel like they had done it alone.

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Scoutmaster Ron]

Bob,

I can certainly appreciate what the book says but is says but I think it is best to side w/caution and safety. Tks for the book reference Bob, I will certainly have to review it. I think in todays climate that Natl. definelty must review and modify it. Call me over-protective. I'm sure parents will rest easily if the know there are adults along on the trip.

[Bob White]

Don't expect this to change. Training scouts to be independent is part of the program continuum. In Tigers it ios one on one with adults, in Wolf and bear dens you have two adults and just about any adult signs the advancement, in webelos it's two adult leaders and only they sign advancement, in Boy Scouts it's adults training the elected junior leaders and adults approving youth to sign advancement, in patrols it's strictly youth run, all leading to ventures with an adult adviser for each sex and youth fun (even the committee is made of youth members).

 

The program is designed to lead youth to independent action. The patrol method is key to that goal. Safety is in the planning. If you do not trust the scouts to do what they have been trained to do then why waste the time training them? If they are not going to be able to achieve the maximum benefit of the skills they are not going to have the scouting experience that was promised to them in the handbook and that you as a leader promised to deliver.

 

If you want to side with caution and safety (and i agree that is vital) then teach them caution and safety. If you feel the scouts can never act independently then the problem is in the training they are recieving.

 

Deliver on the promise of scouting!

 

Bob White

 

[sctmom]

Sooner or later you have to let children, especially teenagers, out of your sight. Most of the kids that age probably go home to an empty house every afternoon. That is just as dangerous as a group of trained scouts taking a 2 mile hike. I like Bob's way of letting them have a little bit of freedom. With the long range walkie-talkies getting so cheap (bought one for less than $10.00 the other day), we can use the technology to give everyone some peace of mind.

 

Rooster, you sound more like the Mother Hen than the Rooster..

 

It all depends on the boys and the situation. There are some places, situations and some boys where adult supervision is required.

 

[mk9750]

Another revelation for me!

 

I NEVER EVER expected to see that a Scout activity could take place without adult supervision. We do a pretty good job of staying out of the way when our boys plan and carry out events. But to think that the rules and regulations would allow us to stay away from the actual event shocks me. National has gone so far as to say (at least what one campmaster told us) that Scouts earning Rifle or Shotgun MB can only load 1 round at a time.

I tried to verify this in the Scoutmaster handbook, but couldn't find my book (maybe this points to a problem in itself, eh?). But once I confirm the information is accurate, you can bet I'm telling both of my sons (PLs in two different patrols) to start planning!!

Mark

[yaworski]

I NEVER EVER expected to see that a Scout activity could take place without adult supervision. We do a pretty good job of staying out of the way when our boys plan and carry out events. But to think that the rules and regulations would allow us to stay away from the actual event shocks me.

 

If Scouting was created anew today, this wouldn't be the case. We'd need two men and two women present, a para-medic and a lawyer on all outings. However, Scouting was created when boys would build rafts and sail down rivers or just wander off for a weekend with their buddies.

 

National has gone so far as to say (at least what one campmaster told us) that Scouts earning Rifle or Shotgun MB can only load 1 round at a time.

 

The Guide to Safe Scouting does specify that only one round may be loaded at a time in rifles (.22 Bolt action only) but says nothing about how many rounds may be loaded in a shotgun. Loading only one round in a shotgun makes doubles difficult.

 

 

[ozemu]

From the point of view of trust and training I agree with yaworski and sctmom.

 

Bob White has it for policy and patrol method. Have had bike hike for one of my patrols (no adult on the track) within the last month with no problems.

 

However maybe also consider these:

 

Are the boys trained in stabilising a spinal injury of the cervix and maintaining ABC's? This being the worst case that I can think of other than death through head injury.

 

Where is the most remote spot for the worst case to occur? Now the math:

 

Time for them to get to you at the trailer?

plus

Time for you to get paramedics with spinal board to them by chopper?

or

Time for paramedics by road/foot if chopper unavailable/weather unsuitable/no LZ.

 

If the result is more than one hour NOLS (Nat Outdoor Leadership School) describe this as a wilderness situation which requires knowledge of maintaining ABC's over a length of time plus a need for patient management (drinking, pressure sores, warmth, toiletting etc) and the ability to take observations etc.

 

Hopefully access is good. Regardless is the gain worth the risk (worst case)? If so go ahead. Good training, breifings and emergency protocols will help to deal with the risk.

 

PS I had a boy come off his bike breaking one bone and dislocating the other in his right wrist on a bike hike I was leading two weeks ago. I was watching it happen and could do nothing to prevent it. Me thinks that adults are almost irrelevant to prevention and completey irrelevant to first aid if they don't have the training.

 

 

 

[mk9750]

The campmaster was adamant about this point for both activities. We just had a campout where we worked on both. Our boys decided they wanted Troop rifles, so they raised enough money to purchase 5 Marlin .22 bolt action rifles. When made to revert to loading one round at a time, we encountered more misfires than we ever had loading a clip. And by the way, to be humorous and not argumentative, the MB councilor for these MBs is an attorney, with all of the required certifications.

This aside, I agree that today's Scouting would not look the same as it did years ago if developed more recently. But with the "dumbing down" of the program that I believe has happened all in an effort to CYA, I'm suprised this survived (the above is my opinion. I take responsiblity for it.)

 

But the key is I've learned something new that I plan to encourage my sons to take full advantage of.

Mark

[Bob White]

mk9750,

Please read the Guide to Safe Scouting thoroughly! It is not about dumbing down, it's about learning from past mistakes and saving lives. Single shot rifles have been the policy of the BSA for decades.

 

I am willing to bet that your troop doesn't legally own rifles. The troop may have paid for them but I would bet an individual or individuals names are on the ownership papers. The troop does not exist as a legal entity. The closest you can come to ownership is if your Charter Organization has ownership of the rifles.

 

If your charter organization is unaware that the troop has bought firearms I would definitely inform them.

 

Bob White