Parent Problems- from a Webelos Leader

[K1986]

I belong to a small pack, I have the largest den which consists of six webelos. For the most part they have a good group dynamic and we get alot of stuff done. I also have very dedicated parents. I have one parent in specific who has been a problem for several years, he is a real know it all, if you've got a story, he's got one better. If your kid did something well, his kid can do it better. If his kid lost at pinewood derby, pushcart races or tug-o-war, the winners all cheated and he has no problem voicing his opinions in front of parents and other kids, ruining the event and making others feel bad. It has even gotten to the point where parents won't come on outtings if this dad is coming, instead they send the other spouse, an uncle or aunt or older cousin. In some family cases they are running out of people who will deal with this dad and are just opting out, and staying at home instead.

At last weeks meeting we were working on some Outdoorsman and fire safety requirements. This weekend is two of the boys' first campouts at a council sponsered event, they are all very excited.

While working on fire building I started with the basics, setting up a safe area, free of dry debris that may catch on fire, you readers know the drill, then went into how to start the fire with a little dry grass or leaves, then tinder and gradually get larger. Then "super-dad" (I use this as a sarcastic yet more appropriate than what I'd like to call him, name) pulls out his zippo lighter and hands it to his son who cannot seem to get the matches lit and is beginning to cry. In front of the other kids he starts badgering him for crying and tells him just to use the lighter, no one ever uses matches anymore anyways.

I kindly took the lighter and asked another dad to help "super-dad" get some materials from my SUV to separate him from his child, whom the other boys helped cheer up quickly by encouraging him to keep working with the matches and another dad and I gave him some pointers, the situation resolved itself quickly. When "super-dad" returned and his son told him excitedly that he had gotten it started with matches his father replied with "I'll get you a lighter for camp, I don't want you to look stupid again." I immediately told him lighters were not permitted, to this I got a dirty look and told that his kid could use one just fine. (If he shows up to camp with one I will take it away)

Ok long story short, I cannot have this behavior happening. I have had like I said, complaints from other parents, specifically involving his "better" ways to use a pocket knife. I have been putting out fires for this guy for three years now and It's not getting better. I feel like if I say flat out that he cannot attend events it will cause them to pull the child out of scouting. I have seen the boys older brothers, not to mention that his parents are not what you would call upstanding citizens, he's already set up for failure. His aunt, who's son is also in my group, agrees that scouting might be the only thing that keeps this boy from a juvinile detention center.

I am at a loss, we only have one year left until he would cross over to Boy Scouts, something which his parents have already voiced he may not be doing. Do I once again talk to "super-dad" and tell him to cool off, something that hasn't worked in the past. The CM has tried talking to him, nothings changed. I just don't think it's fair to the scout that his dad is always cutting him down, or to the other scouts who are caught in the middle of it, and to me who is always being interupted and "corrected" while I am trying to work with my scouts.

Sorry for the long post, any advice is welcomed.

[Tampa Turtle]

How far along are the Webelos? Are you close to the Boy Scout crossover?

[K1986]

Five of them are finishing their first year of Webelos, one is just starting. The problem parent is from one of the soon to be second year Webelos. So I still have this scout and his dad until next spring.

[AKdenldr]

K1986, I am thinking Turtle wanted to know something else....

 

How many activity badges does this boy have and when will he be 10.5 years old? How close is he to his AOL?

 

In my Web I den of 8 boys 3 could bridge now and almost all by September or October.

 

In our pack we have early bridged boys when the den experience isn't working. The result was terrific for the boys.

 

Perhaps this boy and his dad would do better in the Boy Scout environment.

 

Regardless, super dad needs to be told to stay home. This might be a time for you to get an official Assistant Den Leader and require the rest of the adults to be somewhere else. ("As in preparation for Boy Scouts").

 

You can't loose the den because of "super dad".

[K1986]

We cross our scouts over together, once a year after Blue and Gold, typically March it's just the way we do things, as far as acheivements and age range I COULD send half of them including the scout in question on their way at the beginning of next year after our summer trip and school starts again, that would leave me with three scouts for next year. Recruiting scouts is hard at an inner city school, and the ones who are ready as far as acheivements are not mature enough even though they will be 10.5 by fall.

To put it bluntly my parents have attachment issues and hover over their children too much, hense some of their immature nature. I have never been able to establish a way to say "get the heck out of here and let your children grow up!" I guess that is the nature of what I am really asking, how do I get not only superdad but the rest of them to back off give their children room to breathe and make them be responsible for their scouting futures?

[ScoutNut]

While parents are usually encouraged to accompany Webelos on campouts, it is not required. The Webelos in question could come with his aunt instead of his father.

 

Parents should not be attending Webelos den meetings unless they are the one in charge of running that specific meeting. The Webelos should be preparing for Boy Scouts by getting more independent. Let ALL parents know that, from now on, den meetings are for Webelos only. The only exception would be a parent who is acting as a Webelos Activity Badge Counselor for that meeting.

 

Unless you suspect abuse (which should be reported to the proper authority), there is not a whole lot you can do about how "super-dad" treats his son. You can, however, make sure you keep him in line any time he is around the den (which should not be a whole lot).

 

By the way, BSA has no rule against using lighters. Is the banning of lighters a local rule of your Pack, or your council?

 

 

[Scoutfish]

"I'll get you a lighter for camp, I don't want you to look stupid again."

 

Now, two wrongs do not make a right, but at the point dad said this...I'd have him walk a couple or 20 yeards away with me and dress him down. No, it iswn't the right thing to do according to trhe books, but It's the right thing to do in my mind.

 

I'd explain to him in no uncertain terms that the only one who looked stupid in any way, shape or form was him. But then I would point out that as many times as he has done stupid stuff, nobody pointed it out. Maybe explain what encouragement and respect is. Talk about courteous and friendly means.

 

Then I'd go over what the whole point of scouting is as he seems to not have any idea what it is.

 

Now, I will not even try to say my tactic is the right thing or even any better than dad's approach, but maybe somebody just needs to say it.

 

Thankfully, in my pack, I would have the support of the rest of the parents, leaders and the CO for a parent like this.

[Oak Tree]

Parents should not be attending Webelos den meetings

 

Unfortunately, as a general policy this is contrary to BSA rules, which state that parents in general are welcome to attend any event. Usually it's not a problem.

 

In this case, where you are losing other participants to this guy, I think you have to give him some hard and fast rules. You are well within your rights to demand that dad not attend, especially if you have the other leaders (CM, CC) backing you.

 

Really, it's unlikely that you're going to change super-dad's personality. They probably won't cross over to Boy Scouts, if I had to guess (I'd bet on older brothers mocking him). So making some demands now will likely save others who are sick of dealing with him.

 

Personally, I'd ask him what he hopes to gain by having his son in Webelos. Then I'd give him my list of expected behaviors from parents, and say that if he can follow those rules, he's welcome to stay. When he doesn't, he's gone.

[K1986]

Thank you to everyone's comments, tonight we did have a den meeting and I took the opportunity to speak with the mother and father of the scout in question privately while another den leaders worked with the whole pack on a belt loop tonight. I didn't expect the conversation to go well but what I got was a disaster! As expected but still unfortunately the conversation did not go well and although I approached the subject calmly and explained what the problems were, when I laid out the idea that from now on parents would not be part of the den meetings they took their child and left. I was approached by two other parents asking what the fuss was and I explained the situation (as much as they needed to know) and informed them that the group was going to be more independent of parent hovering and they also both left before the meeting was over quite angry. The CM sent out an email tonight explaining that next weeks meeting would be a parent/leader meeting only, no kids, as there was aparently a problem with a few of the tiger parents as well tonight when the other parents got huffy and said if we couldn't control the group (at one point one of the mothers was tossing quite a fit and loudly in front of the other kids) they wouldn't be returning. It is likely that after the parent meeting we will have one more pack meeting, give the rest of the awards the kids have earned and call it a scouting year a few weeks early. Very frustrated, wishing I could do more, but we only have 11 registered students in the pack, some of them are siblings and two are mine! With so many upset parents letting everyone cool down seems the only way to go. We will see how it goes at the meeting, who knows maybe the situation will resolve itself.

[5yearscouter]

with such a small pack you guys really do have to figure out how to all get along.

 

And I don't think it's right to tell all the parents that they cannot attend den meetings. We harp over and over again that BSA does not = babysitters of america, so you really don't want a drop off program of parents at this age.

 

for tigers the parents have to be there participating with their scout 1 on 1 in everything.

and in Webelos they don't need mom or dad hand holding right there in their scout's faces telling them waht to do.

but telling a parent of a webelo that they can't come to the meetings is a great way to have the parents pull their scout out of cubs. especially if you have hover parents.

 

to deal with the hover parents in webelos, you can ask them to wait out in the hall, you can ask them to sit in the back of the room and not to interrupt. you can give them jobs, and you SHOULD put them to work like merit badge counselors "teaching" a webelos activity pin.

 

 

[moosetracker]

You may need to re-propose a "weaning" process at your next meeting, trying to set up timelines of things, and may never get the parents to not attend meetings, but not be hovering parents.. 5yearscouter is right you cannot demand the parents no longer attend. We cannot do so in boy scouts, even with OA, which is a secret honor society, parents are highly discouraged from attending, but they cannot bar them from attending if they want to..

 

Sorry the advice you got earlier in this post, lead to a mis-interpretation by you, due to some important things left out.. The weaning of parents should be done gradually over the years, and not be painful.. It should be done so gradual that the parents just do it themselves.. Tigers the parents always there, hovering.. Wolfs - parents are usually there but not hovering, unless involved with difficult projects.. Bears - the parents maybe there for beginning or ending of meetings, or every other meeting, but they start letting go.. Webloes most parents not at den meetings (as long as you have a 2nd adult leader in attendance), but some may be there yet totally removed from the interaction of the meeting..

 

Our troop always had parents stay, but they are either watching from benches on the sides, or in a separate room nearby talking.. We were one of these parents because it was a 30 minute drive to the troop.. For a 1.5 hour meeting, there is not point going home.. That would mean 2 hours on the road driving for 2 round trips, so that we could spend hour at home.. Sometimes we would go off shopping and return though.

 

You no longer have 4 to 5 years to gradually and naturally ween.. You have one year, and can do some weening, and leave the rest of the weening in the troops hands (which they should have some experience with also..)

 

Best for you to back-off from the my way or the highway stance, and change tactics to being a group effort between you and the parents in getting these kids self-reliant enough to succeed in Boy Scouts.. Re-group, apologize and explain it as the fact that you just realized you were far behind where you should be with the scouts self-reliance development, and incorrectly mis-judged the effect of attempting to bring them up to speed of where they should be in such a quick motion. But, because it is important for the boys to success in boy scouts some if not all of this needs to occur before they bridge this is going to be something that you and the parents need to concentrate on.. Let them know that advancement wise and age wise of the boys could cross over by the beginning of next year, but self-reliance wise they are not ready to cross-over and succeed..

 

In other words your parents are most likely hovering because they want their boys to succeed.. Appeal to their desire to have their children succeed.. Steer this change and make it less traumatic and fearful for the parents because they are in on the design of how this will happen.. This is where your children must be before they cross-over.. I need you guys to work with me to get them there.. Work with me here and help me get them there.. What are your ideas on how we can gradually do this, and be ready by next March.. Allow them to feel important because they are a part of the solution.

 

Remind parents who do not care because their boys are not going on to boy scouts that a) This is what Webelos is all about to move from a family program to a self reliant program.. This is Webelos.. b) event if the boys are not going to become boy scouts, this is the age for their boys to learn self-reliance safely in a controlled environment rather than out on the streets.. I dont know how scary the streets are for your inner city.. Some are scary, some are not.. But the opportunity and tools that will help a parent teach their children self-relience in a safe environment, to learn to make good decisions, the right decisions using their own judgement, should appeal to most parents.

 

[evmori]

You are not going to change this dad so I wouldn't waste my time trying. What I would do is tell him his attitude is detrimental to the den and the Pack and his presence is no longer need and he will not be allowed to attend any more functions with his son. You might lose the kid, which is sad, but you can't let one parent ruin your entire unit.

[Tampa Turtle]

Sorry for the slow reply...I had an injured boy scout at home. (I will say 1st aid is great to learn for home use! All is well)

 

I am sorry about the problem dad. I know you hate to lose the boy but I agree that moving him into the Boy Scouts ASAP would be the best solution.

 

Hovering parents is a problem but you initially mentioned that other than the problem dad that you had a great group. I had a great Webelos group of parents who pitched in but it also mean't they hovered a lot. It did create some significant separation problems when most of them crossed over to Boy Scouts.

 

In my group I had to balance the need to prep the boys who would cross over against those who might not for whatever reason. You want to deliver a quality program for them so that will return to scouting when they are parents in the future. Also some of the boys who said they wouldn't cross over did so anyway because they had a good time in the 2nd year of Webelos.

 

I would tack a middle ground assuming that some of the families come back. We met at a City park. I would put the parents at a separate table and the boys at another. Parents could come over with boys if I had assigned them a specific part of the meeting. I would have the parents (mostly moms) plan the support work for future activities and campouts and have any interested dad's help with more "Boy Scouty" work, tent setting up practice, hiking hydration lessons, whatever. Every parent is good at something so use them as a resource and keep them busy. Make one an ADL even if unofficial to ride herd on the parents.

 

Meanwhile try to physically work separately with the boys, I tried to find excuses to do things in a far field. Also we did more hikes--even if just for a evening meeting--and other physical activities...that weeded more parents out. Also I wore the Class A as often as I could get away with instead of the Class B...the parents respond to the authority as much as the kids.

 

I found dealing with the Webelos parents --and I had a GREAT co-leader and a great group of parents--pretty hard. It is a transitional age for the boys and parents are very protective. The most protective parents often drop out before Boy Scouts. Also if a family had started in Tigers they may be getting burned out at the same time the boys who would make good Boy Scouts are getting bored in Webelos.

 

Remind any offended parents that you welcome their help but you want their boys to gain some more independence in a safe --emphasis safe - environment.

 

If your Council offers a "Back to Brownsea" or similar "Boy Scout simulation program" I strongly suggest pushing it. That cured a lot of problems. The boys that went camped separate from their parents and came back very enthused about scouting and camping on their own. The parents felt better and I had allies in the kids.

 

That said, K1986 I thought the others gave you good advice. I thank you for your service...it can be a tough job but think of the boys you are helping.

[Beavah]

5yearscouter is right you cannot demand the parents no longer attend

 

Of course yeh can. Nothin' in the rules implies that you have to allow disruptive adults to harm your program or the experience of the kids, or to participate in activities where they may jeopardize their own or others' safety. If dad doesn't pass the swim test, no canoeing. And if dad can't sit and observe quietly without being a turd, no cub camping. Parent is welcome to comply or leave the program.

 

Now in this case, I think K1986 should take a step back from the edge. Yah, this fellow is a bit of a pain, yah, he's not my idea of a model dad, but he is out with his kid. A lighter, after all, is a small thing. I expect that this whole incident became inflated in everyone's mind because people were tired or the weather wasn't perfect or whatnot. Personally, I would have shrugged it off with a mild sideways humorous comment to the dad sometime later that day. Just enough to get him to think a bit, not enough for him to go "shields up!"

 

Moosetracker and Turtle have some great ideas for how to step back from the ledge, and refocus things on how to make it about the program and boys, not about the parent or individual kid.

 

The transition to boy scouting is goin' to be hard for the fellow, but in many ways it's also a better spot for the "weaning", eh? He'll be dealin' with new adults and a pre-existing program, rather than a fellow parent of a webelos 1 boy tryin' to tell him how to be a parent. It's OK to leave some tasks for the boy scouters .

 

So I think evmori is right, yeh aren't goin' to change the man, so yeh just focus on the boy. To the extent he's just annoying, yeh put up with it with good grace because a Scout is friendly and kind. To the extent he's truly disruptive of the program yeh ask him to step back or give him some task to do that is appropriately "manly" and keeps him out of the way. But don't let the Infamous Lighter Incident become more than it should be, eh? It's a deal, but it shouldn't be a Big Deal.

 

Beavah

 

[moosetracker]

Ok you can tell disruptive parent they are not welcome as in the case of the one dad, and I realize the lighter was just an example story, and probably you think it is big based on all the other history which are causing the other parents to not want to take their sons to the same event he is at.. If his actions are causing people to remove themselves and their sons from the program due to him, he is a big enough issue to think about it..

 

But, you can't remove all the other parents.. those you originally labeled as For the most part they have a good group dynamic and we get alot of stuff done. I also have very dedicated parents. For the simple reason that other Webeloes dens in America have achieved this seperation, so you expect them to also.. Hovering parents are different then "parent turds" (as beavah wishes to label them..) They all have been thinking for years they have been helpful and supportive and that you appreciated their help.. You are hurting some good folks feelings by telling them they are nothing but alot of dead weight, and extra baggage..