Cub Pals vs. YP

[Oak Tree]

I wanted to weigh in on the Eamonn/Scoutfish debate about the line and whether it's a fine line or a chasm.

 

the premis is this: Just because I invite a few co workers of my boss ( yeah, he's that cool) to my house for a pig pickin or other cookout/ party event - does not make it a work event , nor do any normal work protocals take place.

 

What if your boss does it? What if the company has a softball team that plays in a league? My company does set up sports leagues and it is indeed workman's comp if you get injured while playing.

 

If I am invited to my (now Webelos) leaders house for a party, and I take my son, who plays with his sons..then it is just that...a party, not a scout event

 

But Scouts can have a party, too. If the den leader invites only Scouts, does that make it a Scouting event? How can you tell?

 

There are some church youth groups that roughly correspond to a Scout troop. If the youth group goes camping, is it a Scout event? What makes the difference?

 

Usually with most groups it's pretty clear most/all of the time. But I can easily imagine situations where the line isn't so clear.

[Eamonn]

My employer has a Code of Ethics. Which we all are supposed to follow.

It covers not only what is acceptable behavior at work but also behavior while not at work.

Just recently a new policy was put in place about what is not allowed to be put on Social Networks (Face-book and the like.)

I am supposed to inform my employer if I'm given a speeding ticket or arrested for any reason.

I'm not allowed to stop and have an alcoholic beverage in a public drinking establishment while in uniform, even on my own time.

These rules are very clearly written and I signed a paper saying that they had been given to me and I understood them.

I also carry a pager which I'm supposed to answer even when I'm not working.

 

I have never been paint balling ever. But we have a couple of Sea Scouts who are really into it going so far as to carry their gear in their cars. Now and then they will at Ships meeting make plans to meet and go paint balling. Sometimes inviting others to join them.

We all (Them and I.) That this is not in any way a Scouting activity. No announcements are made and whatever plans that are made are their own.

They have a couple of times invited people that they met while paint balling to join the Ship. There have been times when these new guys have thought that paint balling was something that the Ship did.

I don't as a rule look for or use Loop Holes to try and circumvent rules and regulations. Not because I always agree with the rule or regulation but I think doing so sets a very bad example for the youth.

I can't see myself standing up saying "We are going to do whatever, but because it's not allowed by the BSA, we are not doing this as Scouts." To a group of Scouts.

But I have had a few Lads who are Scouts come over to my house and help clean up trees using chain saws.

Just like the group that goes paint balling, this isn't a Scouting activity. I do let these Lads know this and in almost all cases their parents are aware that it isn't a Scouting activity.

While I don't ever lose sleep worrying about insurances and the like. God forbid that anyone ever gets hurt, but if they did, I would accept full responsibility without feeling any need to even inform anyone from the BSA.

Ea.

[AnnLaurelB]

*sigh* What your comments all tell me is that the problem is when certain lines are clear to Person A, but that same line appears blurry to Person B.

 

I suppose that's why we have lawyers. Ugh.

[MarkF]

There should not be a problem ... unless a lawyer gets involved. Once a lawyer sniffs out deep pockets of policies with high limits of liability suddenly there are no chasms, no lines, and no grey areas.

 

Sorry, spoken by a cynic in the insurance business.

[Scoutfish]

What if your boss does it? What if the company has a softball team that plays in a league?"

 

What if our CC who is a Marine does it...does it become a military exercise? Does it fall under the guidlines of the United States Marine Corps? Is the government accountable if anything happens?

If he invites a buddy over from work..does it become a mission?

 

What ifs are endless. We could what if all day long, but this isn't a what if.

 

If the pack or den does it...it's a pack or den activity. If I invite a few over and I do not tell them it is a pack or den activitty....then it is NOT a pack or den activity.

 

When I go to RT's, I wear my uniform. Usually, due to when I get off work, and by the time I get home, get cleaned up and shower, I have to rush out the door to get to the RT on time. No time to eat.

 

So after RT, I usually stop at a fast food place and grab something to eat.

 

But this does not make it a RT activity or a BSDA sanctioned activity juist because I am in uniform. It does not mean BSA endorses the restaurant I went to, and BSA ius not liable if I spill my drink in my lap and get into a wreck. Neither is the CO the RT was held at , nor my CO because I just happen to be a CM through it.

 

"But Scouts can have a party, too. If the den leader invites only Scouts, does that make it a Scouting event? How can you tell?"

 

Yeah, they sure can have a party too. But that does not automatically mean any person who happens to be in scouting...is having a scout party.

 

I also like to fish...as well as many of my packs leaders, parents and scout. That does not mean any invite I give is also a fishing invite.

 

But that's not what the OP said:

 

"But her point was that if the kid falls out of my tree or something, that the parent will see it as a Cub Scout event, and try to sue the CO. And if MY insurance knows it was a Cub Scout kid, they might see it as a Cub Scout event, and deny me coverage. But Cub Scouts would see it as a private event, and I'm screwed."

 

 

Unless the OP said it was a scout event...then it is not! Yes, it's that simple.

 

 

[Oak Tree]

AnnLaurelB,

 

This one really isn't that complicated. Everyone on the forum here is saying the same thing - this is not a Scout event.

 

(And the thing is, if it was a Scout event, you'd have even better insurance coverage.)

 

But do some people see lines where others don't? You betcha. In this case, though, you have pretty strong evidence given the general agreement of the forum, that this particular person is wrong. And I actually work with lots of nice lawyers who have their sons in Scouts, and every now and then it can be nice to have someone say what the law actually means.

[AnnLaurelB]

Thanks;

 

For myself, I wasn't going to worry too much about it. At most, if I had a little shindig and invited the other Wolves, I might have a Spanish-speaking parent ask if their son should wear his uniform. *IF* that happened, I'd just say, "Oh, it's not Cub Scouts."

 

I just thought it was interesting how the person I'd talked to had made that interpretation of YP, where it had never occurred to me.

 

Good discussion thread; thanks!

[evmori]

I love it when people stretch stuff like this! If I were you, I wouldn't invite the person's kid who mentioned this to you!

[BadenP]

 

If adults running a pack and the parents can not tell the difference between a scout event and a non scout event there are even bigger problems for that unit to deal with.

The G2SS is nothing more than a set of GUIDELINES, not LAWS or RULES, and has no relevance in this instance since this was NOT even a scout event, period. I can not believe what a group of pansies so many of the parents of today have become. Maybe Mazzuca is right and the BSA should eliminate all outdoor aspects of the program and just stick to safe indoor computer technology oriented activities. The BSA will become a virtual reality game where all activities and advancements can be completed online.

[kari_cardi]

BadenP, we were just talking last night at our leader's meeting about turning Webelos outdoor leadership training into a Wii game! Imagine trying to start a fire onscreen with a wiimote! I think it could be a lot of fun (better than the current training videos on other topics) but of course, it would be no substitute for the real thing.

 

I've been in a situation where members of a group met outside the parameters of that group, something happened, and the group leaders inserted their opinions into the matter because we were all members. It wasn't pretty. I really would be happy to never go through that again, and it didn't even get legal, the social politics were enough. But I refuse to edit my life based on the possibility that someone, somewhere, might judge me wanting based on rules I don't even see as relevant.

 

 

[AnnLaurelB]

"... I refuse to edit my life based on the possibility that someone, somewhere, might judge me wanting based on rules I don't even see as relevant."

 

That's pretty much how I feel. Of course, if *the worst* happens, and I end up living a nightmare, I might change that tune, so I understand the concern.

 

I try to make sensible decisions, but I decline to live my life in fear.