Discipline problem

[AnnLaurelB]

Wise words. I think I'll have to implement this before the next Scouting season starts.

 

Thanks for all of your input!

[Scoutfish]

I concur with Seattle..although I didn't want to be the first to say it:

 

I always consider the well being of the entire den or pack before I consider the "wants" of one parent, leader or scout.

 

If you end losing a bad scout, so be it. Problem solved!If you start losing good scouts becaue of a bad one, pretty soon, all you will have is the one bad one because all the good folks will be over at pack sunny smiles having a blast while you have a wild child running around like the Tasmanian Devil.

 

I mean, you try to work it out as best as you can - when you can, but in the end, the poack outweighs one scout.

[Oak Tree]

I get a very vivid picture of the situation from your writing - you do a nice job with the descriptions.

 

I was a Cubmaster for four years and I have personal experience with a variety of other situations involving some seriously misbehaving children.

 

Here's my opinion: You CANNOT fix this child through Cub Scouts. He will resist any scheme (widgets, whatever) that you put in place. He will not change his behavior to become liked - he is always (at least as far as you're concerned) going to be a holy terror.

 

AS THE CUBMASTER in charge of an event, DO I, at that moment, have the authority to SEND HIM HOME

 

Yes. Absolutely. And I left off the reason that you listed, because you can do so at your discretion for any reason. My opinion - the best you're going to do is to make it clear that he can't follow the rules and be non-disruptive, and at that point they'll probably give up on coming. You could set up some rules for acceptable behavior, with the rule that his grandmother has to take him out of the room when he violates those rules. I don't see him fixing his behavior, but maybe you'll get lucky.

[Nike]

While this boy can benefit from Scouts and the discipline of other adults, what he really needs is intensive personal and family therapy, Grandpa included. It may be heartbreaking for you and Grandma, but Scouting and her best efforts are not working. You two need to have a long sit down over coffee and cake. Bring tissues.

[shortridge]

How large is your pack?

[AnnLaurelB]

*sigh* I know. IknowIknowIknow.

 

(Our Pack has 13 boys right now; 2 Web2's will age out in May.)

 

As a PARENT, he's the kid who I'd tell my son, "NO, HE CAN'T PLAY IN THE HOUSE!" and if he was outside, I'd make sure I found some outside work to do while he's around. The first summer we were in this house, EVERY time he was here (even outside), he would break something of my son's.

 

His water wiggle thing, his Nerf gun, his TREE SWING for Pete's sake (who can break a tree swing?!?). He IS a "holy terror"! That summer we came to where I told him he wasn't welcome at my house without his grandma to watch him.

 

Then we joined Cub Scouts. I was just the Tiger leader (and asked "What grade is he in?" before I agreed) and luckily he's two years older than my son (although you can't tell). So I didn't see him except at Pack meetings. I just had my cute little Tigers.

 

And I wasn't in charge of the Pack activities, so I didn't have to discipline him. We just tolerated him from afar.

 

But now as the Cubmaster, it's DEFINITELY my job to set the tone and atmosphere of the gatherings. One of the challenges the ex-CM faced was that he could NOT deal with this kid, and every event was the CM bellowing at the terrorist. It was not fun (but the other part of his challenge was... he's not fun. He's a logistics guy, not an entertainer.)

 

ANYWAY, I struggle to maintain the fun over here on the left hand, and discipline this kid over on the right hand, out of the spotlight, if that makes sense. "Ok! Each Den take 2 minutes to work on that, and I'll check back on you! Go!" (Go snarl at terrorist, come back).

 

I AM afraid that people will leave. I feel like I have the personality to convince parents to join, but one or two times around this other kid, and they'll quit. One AWESOME Den leader and his sweet son left already. I'm afraid of my two Bears not coming back because they don't want to share his den.

 

I guess I've known all along that he would have to be dealt with. I do like the term "terrorist"; that's essentially what he is. He causes everyone to just WAIT for the next explosion of tantrum.

 

I felt like because Cub Scouts is a teaching forum, that we sort of HAD to accept him. Mind you, the fact that we're chartered by a church, and I'm a member of that church, and they consider the Scouts and "outreach ministry", it makes it harder to say, "We can't have this kid here." The church sees it as "Oh, we must help the poor little lamb!" And none of the Committee have kids in the Pack, so they don't know how bad he is.

 

But hey don't call it "Cub...Master" for no reason. (Grammar police, there?) I need to call the shots, not him. You're all correct. I guess I just needed permission to do my job. :0) Now I just need back-up within the Committee (and I'll go to my Commissioner, if I have to) to uphold the standards.

 

I'm going to think about which Committee member might go with me to talk to grandma. We only have 2 more Pack meetings this season. I think I'll try to meet with her within the planning for the next season in August.

 

Thanks, everyone!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Lisabob]

Something else to keep in mind - you've mentioned a couple of times now that you are concerned about losing your two bears next year when they join the webelos den with this kid. Well that's an understandable concern, but there is no reason that you MUST put the webelos I & webelos II dens together. Yes, I know, this boy is your only webelos II kid, but so what. Let the dens stay separate and it will end up better.

 

By the way I agree - it sounds like the boy needs professional help, and so do his guardians. Any child with the medical issues you described would need help, probably regardless of the parenting skills of his caregivers. Maybe you'll be able to frame it as a medical thing, as opposed to a critique of grandma's parenting abilities (which do sound a bit weak, but hey, who wants to be told that). I'm surprised that the kid isn't getting some kind of behavioral counseling through the school - or at least, that the school isn't pushing the idea, too?

 

 

[Scoutfish]

" The church sees it as "Oh, we must help the poor little lamb!" And none of the Committee have kids in the Pack, so they don't know how bad he is."

 

If for some reason, the conversation starts heading this way, explain that the church wouldn't put up with this kind of adult behavior during Sunday services ...now would they?

 

Then explain that the church stands to lose the rest of the pack due to this one kid.

 

Again, it sucks. It really does. I have no doubts that you wish you could do more for this guy. But that's the way it works sometimes.

 

Too many think that all people are either right in the head or just nuts.....but there are alot of variable stages along the way.

 

 

AS bad as anybody hates to say or think it, this kid may just be as good as he will ever get. Grandma might be trying in vain to make him "right" because he just isn't going to get "better" . At least not in the environment scouting offers.

 

The botom line is this: It is not your job to be a full time wardon during pack events. Occasional situation? Yes. Full time? NO!

 

It is not the packs, the leaders or any other scouts or oparents responcibility or job to be constantly burdoned by this one scout.

[AnnLaurelB]

The Web1/Web2 separate Den thing is a good point; the issue is going to have to be up to the Bear parents, isn't it?

 

I have asked both parents if they would be Den leader (keeping in mind that they have NOT had one ALL year, and have both been doing their Requirements at home) and they both flatly refuse.

 

Their choice, then, when their boys go into Webs is to either continue what they're doing, with NO Den (unless we get more Web1's from recruiting), make their own Web1 Den and one of them be Leader, or... go into a Den with the terrorist.

 

I will put it to the two Bear parents that it's their choice. Make a Web1 Den, or join the terrorist. Frankly, I think they should just team up and be Web1's together. But if neither of them wants to lead the Den, then that's their option.

 

Part of what's helpful from your comments is that I think a lot (not all) of my parents are looking at me like, "What are YOU going to provide here?" Oh, they're all very nice, but I think since their NAMES aren't on stuff, and they don't have a spiffy uniform shirt, that it's not their burden.

 

But you've reminded me that it's THEIR program; I'm just here to M.C. the thing and hand out road maps from time to time.

 

 

[moosetracker]

I was thinking the Bear parents lost their DL recently and do not want to be DL.. If they have been doing their own Bear stuff at home as lone scouts, (unless they really didn't do much to achieve the ranks at home).. Then Each of the parents are in fact DL's to one scout.. I would reason with them if they came together, they could share their combined knowledge and skills and make it easier for them to get through the WebI activities.. You are lessoning their work & responsibilities by combining them, not increasing it.. One parent take on DL the other ADL.. They can then rotate the responsibilities..

 

Seems like a no-brainer to me, unless the two parents can't stand each other..

[AnnLaurelB]

Good point.

 

And they get along fine.

 

I've recently mentioned to them that we need to sit down and chat soon about the boy's advancements before our "year" is up at the end of May.

 

That may be the time to say, "Look. You're already DOING it."

 

One parent *can't* be the DL; he is the deposed CM who had so many personal issues that the Committee removed him (which is why I have the job. But I like the job. I'm not giving it back! ;0) )

 

They WANT him involved as a parent, because it's not his son's fault the guy's messed up, and he's now on the Committee

(non-voting) as the Events Chair. But he can't be a Den leader.

 

The other parent is a very timid single mom; when she asked "Who's the Bear leader", and I waggled my eyebrows at her, she about had a stroke. "Oh, NO! No, nononano! No way!"

 

BUT! In light of "Hey, you're already leading YOUR Bear!" and the prospect of having to share a Den with the terrorist, she might yet come around!!

[SeattlePioneer]

Personally, I wouldn't put off disciplining the terror until next year. Just as you are mamking plans for next year, so are others. Deciding to drop out of Cub Scouts at the beginning of the year is a natural decision.

 

Send the boy home the first time he misbehaves during the last two den meetings. It puts everyone on notice that that bad behavior will not be accepted.

 

The Cub Scout promise is more than just words. It descibes the necessary preconditions for having a functioning group. "To obey the law of the pack" is NECESSARY to being a Cub Scout. If a boy can't do it, he can't responsibly be a part of the pack.

 

 

 

 

[AnnLaurelB]

Yeah, I hear what you're saying. We're a little late in the game, at this point, and I've spent the year just getting used to being Cubmaster and understanding what all that entails.

 

I think I'll do as you say, and maybe even sit down with the kid in the next couple weeks and have him tell me what he thinks the Law of the Pack MEANS, line by line.

 

I can also gently/firmly bring to his attention that I can't allow him to disrupt others' fun/learning. And if that means putting him in a Web2 Den with just his grandmother, then that's what I'll do.

 

Once grandma and he understand that the Web1's CAN choose to NOT participate with him, they can choose to Do Their Best, or be in a Den alone, or ...not come back.

 

I'll wait and see how much of the summer stuff they come to...but for two years now, they're there EVERY TIME THE DOORS ARE OPEN.

 

And they're usually early. Heh.

[hotdesk]

One of the things you may want to consider, if you're going to do the "widget" route, is not taking, but giving. Every time you see a scout being "helpful, friendly, etc."...basically being scout-like, give the boy a widget. This way they have to earn, instead of being punished.

 

Put a positive spin on your behavior modification program.

[Lisabob]

Maybe this is just me, but you might also want to avoid labeling the kid as a "terrorist." Yeah I know what you mean by it (I think) but who does it serve to attach such a loaded term to a child? There's a boy who joined our troop a few years ago, who closely resembled the description you've given of this child. A webelos leader and den from a different pack came to visit the troop. Like you, I live in a small town and most of the kids know each other from school & extracurricular activities. The webelos leader saw that kid, and made a snide comment asking how the little piece of s--- was faring. Of course some other kids heard it, too. He really was a difficult kid to be around, but still, that wasn't too helpful. I was glad when that webelos leader opted to join a different troop.