Cubmaster vs Den Leader

[ralphher45]

I am a fairly active Bear Den Leader with a good group of cubs and parents who we've known for quite a while. A few years back, our Pack welcomed a new Cubmaster. Nice enough guy, but for I guess a number of reasons (political, economic, racial, I'm not exactly sure) my wife (who is my Assistant Den Leader and attends the Pack Committee meetings) and I just rub this guy the wrong way. There have been others that we knew he didn't care for, who would eventually leave the Pack with their son. This is all fine, though because we don't always have to like the people we work, or volunteer with. Because we know we're on his "hit list" we have been VERY careful to dot our "i"s and cross our "t"s on paperwork, fees and training. Still, through the bluntness of his choice comments to us, and of course what he says about us in Facebook, we know he want's us gone. We just found out (by another Pack Committee member who also scared of him, but is a good friend of ours) that this Cubmaster intends on having a Pack Committee meeting, of which we are not to be part of (keep in mind, as a Den Leader,we are on this committee) to "discuss issues" about my Den and it's future. Granted, I express just my side of the story here, still my question is a one of Scout Bi-Laws. Can a CubMaster hold a valid Pack Committee meeting knowingly excluding specific members of the Pack Committee. Especially if this meeting is to discuss the excluded party?? Are these bully tactics a normal occurrence? Are decision made in this type of committee meeting even valid? If this Cubmaster decides he wants me out as a Den Leader, and uses intimidation to get whatever committee votes he needs, then what? If my Den disagrees and I refuse to step down, and we continue to have our Bear Den meetings, what happens then? I'm sad because I really didn't think my experience in Scouting would be this way. I'd love to hear some feedback on this.

[EagleG]

Where is the Committee Chair in all of this? I thought they are the only one that can set up and preside over a "pack" committee meeting.

 

Also, I think (though I am still a newbie) that the chartered organization is ultimately responsible for the approval and placement of unit leaders. Have you reached out to the rep?

[83Eagle]

A cub master cannot also be committee chair and committee meetings should be called by the chair. The cub master is not supposed to have the type of power you describe exactly to avoid the type of problems you describe. However, not all packs are structured optimally. It sounds like he is acting as the de facto committee chair and the pack has been ok with that.

 

So I have to ask, based on the facts you describe, where is your committee chair and chartered organization rep in this?

 

As to your points about bullying, with the facts as described this should not be tolerated. Particularly if you have Facebook evidence it is something worth pursuing in my opinion, but how far that gets you depends again on the CC or COR. If you do feel you are being abused it could also be brought to a level outside the Pack although I'm not sure where i would start...at the Unit Commissioner perhaps. Someone else can weigh in on that issue.

[moosetracker]

Well since in Cub Scouts parents can sign off advancement, and dens can be lead by parents until another DL & ADL are found, if no one found a willing parent from your group to take on DL & ADL, then you are being run by the parents, and if you are the parent who is in the lead.. Well... What can they do?

 

But, I am more concerned with the whole fight getting out of hand, and moving into the whole Pack rather just between you and the CM.. Granted you are not the one moving it in that direction, but the CM is moving it into be a concern of the committee (and others from different dens..) And your den putting up a stubborn and valent fight, are moving it into a concern of all in your den..

 

What I see from that is that the rest of your time with this Pack will be miserable for you all the other parents in your den... The worst of all, this type of fighting and bickering will definately effect the boys in your den.. Not to mention causing anger and misery for many outside of your den who choose a side and take a position either for you or against you..

 

 

What you have to remember is the Cub Scouts is foremost for the boys.. Not for the Adults and all the things we adults do to ruin things for the boys..

 

I guess you can try to talk to the COR and Committee Chair if they are at all active in the Pack.. The COR can curb the CM if they take your side, and fire them if they see predjudice in the CM's actions.. The Committee chair runs the Committee meeting NOT the CM.. The CM isn't even a member of the committee he is a guest of the committee and there so the committee can get his viewpoint in order to know how to organize special events, or make policy.. The CM doesn't even have a vote, unless the committee has voted to give him one.

 

If you think neither will be sympathetic to your problem, then for your son's sake (and your own) I would look at where those harrassed out of this pack have gone.. Talk to them and the Pack, and make a move for the benifit of your son's scouting career (and your own sanity)..

 

If others from your den wish to leave with you... WELL... that is not your problem..

 

Scouting can be wonderful, but it is usually the adults who ruin things.. Do not get dragged down into the muck where the CM is forcing you into. Your reluctance to move is probabaly based on your pride, and your unwillingness to be run off.. Think of it not in this way, but more in a way of a choice of yours to go to somewhere that offers a scouting program the way it should be run.

[MomToEli]

Another resource for problem resolution is your Unit Commissioner and/or District Executive. The DE has a vested interest in the success of every unit in their District. They can often act as mediators.

 

Postings on Facebook up the ante, IMO, as that is a public forum. Get screen shots of those. Talk to the Committee Chair and have THEM call a committee meeting to which they've invited the Unit Commissioner and ALL committee members. They CM should have the ear of the COR and between them they can remove the disruptive party. The DE can get them removed from scouting all together if the behavior is criminal, which libel can be.

 

IF you have an engaged COR, invite them. Often, though, the COR doesn't really want to have to deal with any unit business. Depending on who the Charter Organization is internal bickering may be just the excuse they need to back away from the chalupa, as we say.

 

Good luck to you and your boys. Try to shield them and their parents from all this mess. Whatever happens with this Pack, don't let it get so bad the boys end up quitting scouts - they will be the big losers if that happens. Move them to another unit if you have to in order to prevent that (that's just my opinion, of course).

[OwntheNight]

Exactly what Eagle G said. "Where is the Committee Chair in all of this?"

 

The CC should be running the Committee Meetings. Also, in all of this, where is the Chartered Organization Rep. This is the person designated by the CO to be the final say in the unit. Granted, some CO's are very "hands off" when it comes to how the unit is run.

 

You should be in attendance at this meeting no matter what. Or, I guess you could get the parents in your den to register as committee members and actually have a vote on the committee.

 

This can only end badly for all parties involved. I know this, because the Pack I am taking over as CM for in March had almost the same thing happen to us this year. CC wanted a Asst Den Ldr removed due to personality conflicts, got the committee to vote with the CC and ADL was removed. A couple months later, that den informed the pack they would be transferring to another pack. This created a domino effect, our Bear den ended up leaving also. I now have a pack of Wolves and Web 1. Not the best situation for an incoming CM. Needless to say, I am trying to mend fences with that Den, and hopefully they consider rejoining us.

 

The CM is responsible for the pack meeting and the "program" part of Cub Scouts. The committee should be responsible for the "business" side of Cub Scouts. As a CM, he should be prepared to step in as a Temporary DL if he loses a leader, or the other side of this is that the Committee better be prepared to name another CM if he decides to walk due to a perceived lack of support. Remember, we become Scouters and Leaders "FOR THE BOYS"

 

Here are the Qualifications and Responsibilities for the Cubmaster:

 

Qualifications: Is at least 21 years old, subscribes to the Declaration of Religious Principle, and agrees to abide by the Scout Oath or Promise and the Scout Law. Possesses the moral, educational, and emotional qualities that the Boy Scouts of America deems necessary to afford positive leadership to youth. Does not need to be an expert in all Cub Scout activities but should be a leader who is able to communicate well with adults as well as boys. Should be able to delegate responsibilities and set a good example through behavior, attitude, and uniform. Should believe in the values and purposes of Cub Scouting. Preferably a member of the chartered organization. Selected and appointed by the pack committee with the approval of the chartered organization, and registered as an adult leader of the BSA.

 

Responsibilities: The Cubmaster's responsibilities are to

 

* Conduct a pack program according to the policies of the BSA.

* Complete Cubmaster Fast Start Training and position-specific Basic Leader Training. Attend monthly roundtables.

* Plan and help carry out the Cub Scout program in the pack. This includes leading the monthly pack meeting, with the help of other leaders.

* Help the pack committee with a year-round recruitment plan for recruiting boys into Tiger Cubs, Cub Scouting, and Webelos Scouting.

* Know about and use the appropriate and available literature, including Boys' Life and Scouting magazines, Cub Scout Program Helps, and the Webelos Leader Guide.

* See that the pack program, leaders, and Cub Scouts positively reflect the interests and objectives of the chartered organization and the BSA.

* Work with the pack committee on (1) program ideas, (2) selecting and recruiting adult leaders, and (3) establishing a budget plan.

* Guide and support den leaders. See that they receive the required training for their positions.

* Help organize Webelos dens and encourage graduation into a Boy Scout troop.

* Help establish and maintain good relationships with Boy Scout troops.

* Maintain good relationships with parents and guardians. Seek their support and include them in activities. Involve male relatives such as uncles and grandfathers so that Cub Scouts will have additional male role models.

* See that Tiger Cubs, Cub Scouts, and Webelos Scouts receive a quality, year-round program filled with fun and activities that qualify the dens and pack for the National Summertime Pack Award.

* Guide Cub Scouts in goodwill and conservation projects.

* See that the responsibilities specified for the assistant Cubmaster are carried out.

* Help the pack committee chair conduct the annual pack program planning conference and the monthly pack leaders' meetings.

* Work as a team with the pack committee chair to cultivate, educate, and motivate all pack leaders and parents or guardians in Cub Scouting.

* Take part in the charter review meeting and annual charter presentation ceremony.

* Request den chiefs for all dens and, after selection, see that they are trained. Recognize the den chiefs at pack meetings.

* Conduct an impressive graduation ceremony for Tiger Cubs.

* Meet with the unit commissioner, Webelos den leader, and Scoutmaster to establish plans for the Webelos Scouts' transition to Boy Scouting.

* Help plan and conduct impressive Webelos graduation ceremonies involving parents and guardians, the Scoutmaster, the Webelos den chief, the Webelos den leader, and the troop junior leaders.

* Conduct impressive Arrow of Light Award ceremonies.

* Encourage high advancement standards for all Cub Scouts.

* Help bring families together at joint activities for Webelos dens (or packs) and Boy Scout troops.

* Support the policies of the BSA.

[Twocubdad]

Any idea what the issues are?

 

I'm sort of a cut-to-the-chase guy. Call the guy out. Enough of the third-grade school yard crap. The best way to deal with a bully is to smack them in the mouth one good time. You may get your butt kicked, but chances are the problem will be resolved one way or the other for good.

 

I would email the committee chairman (whether he or she is active and involved or not) and copy the CM, COR, all committee members and parents in your den. Tell them you understand a meeting is in the works to discuss "issues" within your den. That you look forward to such a full and open discussion. However common courtesy -- not to mention just plain ol' guts -- dictate the meeting take place face-to-face with all interested parties participating.

 

Acknowledge that as a Den Leader you serve at the pleasure of the Pack Committee and Chartered Organization. If either feel the issues within your den are so aggregious that you need to be replaced, you will step aside. If that is the decision of the committee, you know that as honorable people the committee will reach that decision in a fair, open and Scout-like manner.

 

But stick to that. If your services are no longer needed, or no one else in the pack has the cajones to stand up with you to this jerk, move on. Life's too short and your time with your son is even shorter.

[ralphher45]

Thank you for the info all. I agree, this is all for the kids so if things start getting too negative, I'll probably have to back out. But at the same time, what message does that send to my boy? His friends get to continue to participate, but he can't because.... I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. I do not believe we have a Committee Chair. Because of my work schedule, my wife addends these meetings so that out Den is represented. Based on how short this Cubmaster has been with my wife, I know he really dislikes her. What is sad is that with a smaller pack, there are not alot of parent leaders to pick volunteers from. Since no one stepped up, my wife took on the roll of recruitment chair. Let's just say, all of my wife's recruitment ideas (participation in local parades, etc..) have been shot down, thus no cub recruitment events and out numbers are stagnant. I just found out from one of my parents who attended a weekend camp that both myself and the Cubmaster, that he has been meeting (or trying to) with my parents asking about or den. Of course without me knowing. One of my den moms told me it seemed like he was fishing for something bad to be said about me or my wife. I know he's crossing a line. I'm just not sure which Cub Scout by-law line it is. I was up all night on-line looking for Boy/Cub Scout rules and regs on the powers of a Cubmaster, the Pack Committee etc.

 

Again, thank for the info thus far and links. In the spirit of Scouting, I'm hoping to find a workable resolution to all of this.

[The Blancmange]

 

I know he's crossing a line. I'm just not sure which Cub Scout by-law line it is. I was up all night on-line looking for Boy/Cub Scout rules and regs on the powers of a Cubmaster, the Pack Committee etc.

You won't find "rules" addressing the sorts of things you are looking for. The closest thing you will find are the job descriptions posted earlier in the thread. Pack committees (incidentally, which do not include the CM and DL's, as someone else pointed out) should operate by consensus, as civilized adults.

Someone has to be listed on your charter as committe chair and chartered organization representative. This may even be a single person. You should find out who that is and enlist their help first. If no one knows, call your council service center and ask. The COR is the liason between your pack and your chartering organization. If one of the leaders is acting inappropriately, as this CM seems to be doing, based on the information presented, the charter organization needs to know about it. Even if they are typically hands-off, this is serious enough for them to be involved. If you want help from outside your unit, I would find out who your unit commissioner is before going to one of the council or district professionals. Again, you can find out who this is by calling the council service center. Good luck.

[moosetracker]

Just to add to the info on the "Unit Commissioner".. This is a hard position for the District to fill for every unit to have one.. If you do not have one, then your point of contact is the District commissioner.. You can find out who yours is, by looking on the council web site for your district.. It should list the Key-3 and their contact information. The District Commissioner is a Key-3.. He should be able to tell you who your unit commissioner is, or provide the help you need..

 

Your Pack can not recharter yearly without a COR and Committee Chair named.. That is why you must have one (Unless you had one that quite since the recharter, some units do float without until one must be named during the next recharter.)

 

I understand your not wanting your son to see you as incapable of standing up to injustice.. After all you are his hero (and should enjoy that until he turns to a teen and then you can't do anything right after that)..

 

If it comes to you leaving.. It all depends on if he is aware of the conflict or not..

 

If not aware, he may question why you are not the DL any more, or why he needs to look for a different Pack (if it comes to that).. But, let him know that you are doing this for the good of the other boys in the den and for him, and he is the most important person in your life.. That you want him to have the best time in scouting, and you felt the need to change for the good of everyone.. If you do it right, you can still be a hero..

 

If he knows what is going on (my son always did, good or bad).. But little pitchers have big ears, and others would call you where you are talking on the phone and he over heard, or people would walk up to you and you weren't aware that he was that close by, or paying attention as you talked..

Anyway, if he knows, then bring him in on your plans as far as you can make them.. Let him know you will fight up to a certain point when it starts effecting (most importantly him) and other in the Den and others in the Pack.. If the fight can be contained you will fight, if the Cub Master though causes it not to stay contained.. Then for the good of everyone involved you will either step down or you will look for a new Pack..

 

If you take the high road regardless of the Cub Masters tactics, then you should be able to stay the hero in your son's eyes.. Just let him know you are taking the high road, and why this is the right way..

 

You really can not win as the hero if you stoop to the CM's level in order to fight him.. You know that, teach that value to your son.

 

Also if you have a few other packs in the area, let your son attend and be part of choosing the pack. He may find some friends from school in one of the other packs, or really like a den leaders enthusiasm..

 

But even if you step down, or step out of the Pack.. It does not mean you have to discontinue your fight by bringing the CM unfair tactics to the attention of others at Council level.. I did for my son in a troop he was in, I had a stearn talk with the SM about his tactic and put in an official complaint to the district Executive who told me that it would take 3 complaints and I was #1, but I knew about the other seperate complaints that went in, and was happy to learn that the SM was permanently barred from scouting after enough complaints..

 

Who knows? If others have been shoved out of the pack unfairly have already made complaints, you might find yourself as the final complaint that will take him down..

[ScoutNut]

The Charter Organization OWNS the Pack. It is up to the head of the Charter Organization (NOT the Cubmaster) to approve all Pack volunteers (see the BSA Adult application). The head of the Charter Organization (not the Cubmaster) has the ability to "hire", and "fire", all volunteers.

 

You should know who the Charter Organization for your Pack is. If not, call your local council. They can tell you. Contact the head of your Charter Organization directly, and do it NOW.

 

No one should be "scared" of ANY Pack leader.

[JustAnotherScouter]

As a CC for four years and a current CM, I can't think of too many "issues" that would make me think about removing a DL. Integrety of the BSA/Cub Scouting program and safety (not in that order) are about it. It's about the kids, not my ego.

 

CO/COR may just be names on a charter application and not active in pack operations. Some will just defer to the Cubmaster without question. I'd advise you to contact your Unit Commissioner or District Executive for advice. As mentioned earlier, you may not have a Commissioner, but you will have a DE. Call your council office for the names and contact info.

 

[Scoutfish]

Get a Youth Scouting application and hand it to the CubMaster. Ask him to point out where he puts his signature on the finished application.

Then hand him an Adult Application. ASk him the same thing.

 

When he is unable to find where his signature goes....smile at him.

 

One of the CM's duties is to HELP the CC and committee find adult leadership. But the CM cannot "hire" the leadership him/her self.

 

If the Cm is somehow acting as CC also. then the COR needs to be made aware that this is not only not allowed, but also a conflict of interest for the pack. Why not just appoint a "Dictator in charge" of the entire pack and do away with all other adult leadership!

[Eagle92]

I can tell you from a DE's point of view, the problems are unit problems that need to be solved by the unit, not the pros. Except if YP, and criminal charges are involved.

 

Part of the rational is that #1 the Charter Organization OWNS the unit. By having the De jump in, the DE is violating the charter agreement in respect to the CO's duties and responsibilities. Even if the CO is only a paper "CO," council will not get involved.

 

Another part of the rational is that DEs are not involved with the units like the committee, COR, and IH are or should be. DEs don't know all that is involved and the dynamics of the units.

[1HR_A_WEEK]

As Eagle92 mentions, DE is basically useless in these kind of situations unless there is a YP issue/criminal problem (no offense). Talking to a district commissioner and requesting mediation help is a possibility. Letting them know whats going on is a good thing and can avoid problems.

 

Having had to remove a den leader, our process went like this...

 

Steps:

1) Petition committee to hear reccomendation to remove den leader.

2) Notify committee ahead of time.

3) Notify den leader of intended action.

4) Request den leader attend committee meeting to address the committee or provide a written statement to be read by a person of their choosing.

2) At meeting, both parties given an opportunity to address committee either in person or via written proxy. Parties are not interrupted.

3) Committee asks parties to wait outside while they discuss.

4) Committee votes via ballot.

5) If COR is part of committee (some are, some are more distant), he/she either takes the recommendation back to the CO with their own recommendation, or if they have authority to make the decision on the spot, either accepts the recommendation or rejects it.

6) Both parties invited back inside, informed of committee decision. Vote results not disclosed, only decision.

7) If COR is not present, committee decision relayed to COR/CO for decision to accept/reject.

8) Leader is removed if CO accepts recommendation of committee.

 

Optional wise things to do:

1) Invite a district commissioner to attend the meeting as an observer.

2) Make sure all committee members know about this issue and will be in attendance.

3) Ask the COR to attend if they don't normally attend the meetings, let them know what is going on ahead of time.

 

Transparency in this process is key. Sounds like the CM is trying to pull a fast one. Bad idea.