WEBLOS II issues

[bokris]

Over the past 2 months, I have become Cubmaster. Our old Cubmaster's son is a WEBLOS II, and the den he is in hasn't been active in completing achievements, but rather "hanging out" over the past year. I haven't had any control over the situation, other than prompting the Cubmaster to hold the den accountable for their responsibilities. This has not happened. Since becoming Cubmaster, I have asked that the den provide me dates of achievements, along with specific achievements earned if the den leaders plan to do arrow of light at the Blue/Gold and crossover ceremony. They have not done so, and therefore I have communicated that I will not be able to allow Arrow of Light to take place.

 

I have also asked that the den provide me with a troop they plan to cross over into, as they do not want to crossover into the troop associated with our pack (a different story altogether). I have provided a list of troops for their review, offered to schedule meetings with the troops and offered to attend the meetings with the den and the leaders/parents. I have gotten no response, other than "we're looking into it." The ex-Cubmaster told me at the last meeting that I could "just set up our home troop for the crossover, but the boys won't actually go into the troop." I told him that I would think about it, but I don't like this idea, as it lacks integrity in my opinion. I have given them another week to make a decision on whether they plan to crossover or not, as well as providing me a troop in which they plan to crossover into. Otherwise, I do not believe a crossover is appropriate, as there is nowhere for which these boys will be "crossing over."

 

This is the bigger picture: The younger dens look forward to this event, as our pack has not had ceremonies until I came in a few years back, and one of my goals was to integrate ceremonies into the pack. I have served as outings coordinator, but I have created various ceremonies and it has become a time for the kids to get excited over. They look forward to them immensely. I also have spoken regularly to the pack about the upper dens being the "peer leaders" (not formally, but they set the example for the younger ones). Not having any type of transitional ceremony for the WEBLOS II's will be a disappointment to the WEBLOS II children, who have been in the pack since Tiger cubs, but it will also disappoint the younger dens, who look forward to this celebration yearly.

 

Are there any suggestions for:

 

1- an appropriate transitional ceremony for the WEBLOS II's in the above-described situation

 

2- Some parting token in which to say "thank you" to the boys for being a part of our pack (this may be poorly worded, but you get the point)

 

3- a diplomatic way to work with the den leaders/ex-Cubmaster so that the parting doesn't end poorly, and upset the children.

 

BTW... A side issue is that the WEBLOS II leaders, ex-Cubmaster and the boys want to continue to participate in pack events after the Blue/Gold and (non)"crossover". How do I gently move them on, as they have truly become a distraction to the dens who are working on various projects?

 

[SeattlePioneer]

What a disappointment!

 

 

As I understand it, boys can continue in a Webelos den until they complete 5th grade. In the absence of boys ready to crossover into Boy Scouts, there's really no occasion for a crossover ceremony and the den can continue to function.

 

No Arrow of Light of course, just as you describe.

 

How do the parents of the other boys feel about this situation? Is the WDL just burned out? Is a Scout Troop willing to provide a Den Chief to develope some enthusiasm?

 

 

I supposing you will be getting a variety of other ideas being posted on how you might deal with this. I think you ask some good questions.

 

I hope you'll open another thread and describe some of your ceremonies, too!

[5yearscouter]

Well I would remind you that the Webelos 2's have until they are done with 5th grade, or 11.5 to remain in the cub scout pack. that if they are 11 years old, they can join a troop even if they haven't completed the arrow of light and that may be what they want, biding their time until that happens. Blue and Gold does not have to be the end of their scouting time.

 

Of course, my Webelos 2's are not crossing over at blue and gold. they will get a short ceremony for their arrow of light badge at blue and gold. They will receive arrows for those who earned arrow of light, and bridge to boy scouts for those who are doing so the next week at an order of the arrow ceremony (blue and gold facilities will not work for an order of the arrow ceremony so we are splitting it up).

 

So for these boys, advancement chair should visit a den meeting to discuss with the boys and their parents and the den leader in person how long the boys want to stay in the pack, and as far as the pack records, this is what the boys need to do to complete arrow of light, OR to just cross over to boy scouts Or do they have a different goal. Encourage them to visit local troops as a group, tell them you'll go with them and then do so. Sometimes they need a little boost to know it's ok.

 

Depending on what their answer is,

contact the local order of the arrow and see if they will do an arrow of light ceremony, or a bridging to boy scout ceremony or both.

 

You could provide career arrows to the boys as a token of their years of scouting. They don't hae to be arrow of ligth arrows if aol is not earned. check with a local hunting/bow and arrow shop to get arrows cheaply, and then paint stripes on them for tiger, wolf, bear, webelos badges and arrow points, or other special events. it's a cool gift, it shouldn't cost more than $5-10 each.

 

Otherwise a scout law or scout oath coin from the scout shop, or a certificate of graduation from cub scouts would be appropriate.

[Pack212Scouter]

You have two issues there. First off is AOL. If they have earned it (although from the Troop visit side, they may not have), then just schedule a date, preferably a meeting night, and give them their AOL ceremony. If the boys have earned it, then they deserve it.

 

Another thing that we do at our B&G is have a representative from each old W2 Den come and "retire" their Den/Patrol flag, right before the new W1's are presented with their new Den/Patrol flag. Makes for a nice transition ceremony that the rest of the Pack sees.

 

As for Crossover/Bridgeover, that is another thing altogether. Most Troops around here prefer to do their own. Some Packs do it as part of their B&G or AOL ceremony, but it is really supposed to be a welcoming to Boy Scouts and our Troop ceremony. In some cases, a small Troop's Scoutmaster will come and do one for the Scout/Scouts from our Pack at the end of our own Troop's. Our Troop allows this as a courtesy.

 

 

[shortridge]

I have also asked that the den provide me with a troop they plan to cross over into, as they do not want to crossover into the troop associated with our pack (a different story altogether). I have provided a list of troops for their review, offered to schedule meetings with the troops and offered to attend the meetings with the den and the leaders/parents. I have gotten no response, other than "we're looking into it."

 

You do realize that's perfectly fine, right?

 

They don't have to cross over into anything. There's no requirement to become Boy Scouts. Nor is there a requirement that the entire den cross over into the same troop together.

 

If the boys and the den leader (is that the ex-Cubmaster?) don't take you up on the information you provided, that's their choice. Sounds like you've done everything you can do. Let them enjoy their remaining time as Webelos and don't make a big fuss out of it.

 

If they decide to get in gear and finish the AOL later, or decide after the B&G to join a troop, present the AOL and hold a crossover ceremony at a regular pack meeting. No skin off your back, or theirs.

[evmori]

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but isn't the Cubmaster's primary responsibility Pack Meetings? Cubmaster and Scoutmaster are not the same thing. While I commend you for want to see these boys succeed, it really isn't your issue.(This message has been edited by evmori)

[83Eagle]

While the cubmaster should work to help dens stay on track, it seems here that the den is well aware of their progress. So at the blue and gold you recognize them for the progress made and if they have nothing to award based on that progress there is no ceremony.

 

If you have other ranks ready to earn their rank badges based on the calendar of the current delivery method, focus your ceremony energies on them.

 

The W2s are allowed to stay in the pack as mentioned, and you can then shift your focus into giving them some token at the last pack meeting, be it a commemorative coin, etc.

 

Regarding your last question, I don't see how the parting is ending poorly since the previous cubmaster and den don't seem to be asking for anything except "setting up the home troop," but any crossover for that can be handled at that last meeting if and only if some boys actually cross over.

[Eagle92]

I do not know why everyone is focused on BnG and AOL and/or Crossing Over?

 

But in any case, if the boys have not completed the requirements, they are not ready.

 

If the leader is burned out, or in my pack's current situation in experienced (he just moved from AWDL to WDL),then definaly get a good Den Chief that can help out, or even possibly run, the den meetings. If my current Den Chief wants to, I am recommending him to become a Webelos DC. It's going to be a challenge for him, but one he is up to.

[Basementdweller]

As pointed out, if the boys haven't done the work then no ceremony....I don't care about tradition.

 

 

But I would like to add, that the lack of the AOL and crossover ceremony does hurt the program. It is a motivator for the younger scouts. When we hand the Career arrow during the ceremony, the little guys eyes get big and they are really excited. We retell the history of the den.....it is a very nice ceremony

 

 

[perdidochas]

There is no rule saying that a Webelos has to crossover while in the 5th grade. Yes, it's highly recommended, but not required.

 

Why don't you communicate to the parents directly about what troop they will crossover to? There is no rule that says that the whole den has to crossover into the same unit.

 

Personally, as a second year Webelos leader, I can't wait until crossover. I'm looking forward to it, as soon I will only have one meeting to work rather than the two (A WDL and general technology specialist for the Pack, and the Advancement Coordinator for the Troop).

[John-in-KC]

My two cents:

 

Advancement is but one of the methods. Even so, part of the learning of Cub Scouting comes through undertaking the advancement program. If there's no advancement going on, if there's no plan to move into Boy Scouting (another of the methods), then there may be deeper problems.

 

I'd have a friendly cup of coffee with your Committee Chair, COR, and Commssioner: It's time to figure out how the Pack is going to handle this Den as they head to the exits. You'll get better advice locally most likely from other folks who know the local ground.

 

As far as ceremonies go, if they are as apathetic as the OP described, I'd be equally apathetic as they hit the exits. At whatever the last Pack meeting is where they'll be around, simply say "This is the final meeting for the following Cubs of Webelos II Den #: We wish you Godspeed."

[mikecummings157]

Wow! I'm on the Troop side of an equation like this and started a thread yesterday ("Cross-overs"). The AOL isn't an issue, but the disinterested parents and WDL (ex-Cubmaster) as it relates to crossing over into a troop. We're going to do all that we can to sell our program to these boys and their parents before they cross over and bring them in.

[John-in-KC]

Mike,

 

The time to start selling parents is Bear year, by deploying Den Chiefs and furnishing appropriate program support downward to the Pack. Scouting For Food, other service projects, and even camping events go better when Cub Scouts see Boy Scouts in action!

 

If parents see Boy Scouts as a natural part of the life of a Cub Scout Pack, they're more likely to continue the trail themselves. That's all the more true when you deploy an experienced Scout to be Den Chief, who is articulate and trusted/empowered by his Den Leader.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[ScoutNut]

bokris - You stated that the 5th grade Webelos have not, to your knowledge, completed the requirements for AOL, and that you have told the den they will NOT be receiving the AOL at your Pack's B&G meeting.

 

You also stated that you are trying to get them to commit to a Troop so that you can hold a crossover to Boy Scouts ceremony at the B&G meeting.

 

Are all of the 5th grade Webelos currently 11 years old?

 

If your Blue/Gold meeting is this month (not at the end of the school year), and none of the boys are/will be 11 years old by the B&G, then your problem of what Troop to cross them into is solved. NONE. They can not cross into any Troop at all.

 

None of the 5th grade Webelos currently meet the BSA requirements for joining a Boy Scout Troop.

 

If your goal is to hold a ceremony only because the Scouts "look forward to them immensely", then hold some kind of Happy Birthday Scouting ceremony (that is the purpose of the Blue/Gold after all), have birthday cake, and give all of the Scouts a small Scouting themed birthday present.

 

If your goal is to use ceremonies to recognize the Scouts accomplishments, then put together ceremonies to present to the Scouts any awards they have completed/earned.

 

Since the 5th grade Webelos have not completed their AOL, nor are they eligible to join a Troop, leave them alone. Let them continue to have fun in the Pack as the Cub Scouts they are, and work toward their AOL if they wish.

 

Why are you in such a hurry to kick these boys out of Scouting?

 

[bokris]

I appreciate all of you guys' feedback. I've found it useful and it has opened my eyes to other options. This is what I enjoy about this site, is that there is so much knowledge here, and I don't have anyone around my area who I have identified as a mentor.

 

When my son and I came into the pack, there were only 5 boys and the now ex-cubmaster. They didn't follow the book, nor did they do any of the lessons. It was a place to hang out on Monday nights. I introduced the concept of using the various den handbooks in an effort for the boys to work towards something.

 

We did not have an executive team, nor did we have an active COR. We still don't have a unit commissioner, and the DE had pretty much turned her back on the pack, seemingly resigned for the pack to fail. It has only been over the past year that our pack has grown to he point of recognition.

 

I have read all that I could outside of my paid job about how to create a functioning pack, and have created, using others' ideas in the creation of this pack. I recruited every den leader and every executive team member, with the only recruit I can't claim being the ex-Cubmaster. We now have a full executive team, den leaders and assistants for every den, and I only lack an assistant Cubmaster and a unit commissioner.

 

We earned quality unit in 2009, as well as recently found out we earned it in 2010 as well. I always thought Blue and Gold was the crossover point, and the WEBLOS II's left the pack afterward. Chalk it up to my ignorance.

 

Scoutnut, I appreciate your feedback, however I'm not sure you got my last point in my IP, and I didn't go into much detail. The WEBLOS II den leaders are the fathers of the boys in the den, who were the initial members of the pack when I joined. As I stated, they didn't even use the book or work towards anything when we got there. They could have been called the "Let's hang out and go camping group" instead of cub scouts. They had never heard of youth protection or the guide to safe scouting. I introduced these concepts as well. I'm not sure how the group remained chartered, actually.

 

This group has been resistant to the changes occurring in the pack, and still don't like the bookwork, nor do they like to be spoken to about it. The WEBLOS II's, who I try to present as the "youth leaders;" the ones who set the example are running in and out of other den meetings, slamming doors and being a general disruption.

 

Why did I stay with this pack? Because my son was extremely shy and he made friends of the boys in his den when we joined, as well as friends with the boys who are now WEBLOS II. I chose rather than to pull him out, to work towards making the pack functional, safe and in lines with the scouting program rather than start him over in another unfamiliar group. This is why I've worked toward the changes.

 

We now have a great group of multi-talented, caring parents and boys who truly love scouting and the group from the beginning are within their last 3 months of graduating our program. I really thought that the Blue/Gold marked the transitional point, as this is what has happened the previous two years. The WEBLOS have "traditionally" crossed over to the Boy Scout troop of their choosing, and the troop has welcomed them in after the Blue/Gold. This is what I thought was supposed to be the natural course of things.

 

I appreciate all of the feedback regarding this issue, and have decided to invite troops to visit us over the next few months, as the WEBLOS II's have been hesitant to visit the troops. This way, not only will this group of WEBLOS II's get to meet some different troops, but the WEBLOS I's, as well as the younger dens. I'll also be communicating outings we have coming up as a pack with our WEBLOS II's, making sure they are still welcome, and letting them know of the various troop activities upcoming that I am aware based on the relationships I'm forming at district roundtable.

 

Thanks guys!