Clashing again with COR

[saschuster]

Once again I am butting heads with our COR. I completed recharter and did not include boys who families ignored my emails and phone calls about paying their dues. I let them know, recharter was $27 per scout and if they couldn't par the entire amount for dues, I at least needed the recharter fee. He was ok with me doing that after fighting a bit so we had about 10 scouts, active in the pack, refuse to play their dues or the $27 tha were not rechartered. 5 of them are Webelos and about to crossover and I have again, let the parents know, now that you refused to pay dues, your son is no longer a scout and can't cross over until they are re registered and the money is paid.

 

So, we were talking about the three boys who will actually cross over because they were rechartered and are up to date on their dues and the question of who pays the money for the arrow of light and their Webelos patch. I said it comes from dues, the COR said no the pack pays. To me, thats not right. Why should dues paid by a Tiger parent be used to pay for another scouts patch and a $20 - $40 plaque? He also said, when the scout crosses over, the $100 that was paid for dues, is transfered to the troop and that's not right either. We paid for recharter so I think the troop will just get $73 and if they get their patch and AOL that is also deducted out.

 

It seems very pretty to me to fight over money with him and this happens quite a bit, along with fighting about other minor petty things but when our treasurer took over three years ago, the pack had a negative balance, the church had to give them money to get them back on their feet and since I took over as CC we now have a little extra thanks to the two of us pushing to get dues paid by all scouts.

 

How does everyone else handle the dues and who pays for what and when the boy crosses over, how much if the dues go to the troop?

[Lisabob]

Each pack handles this issue differently, but I know of none who handle it quite as you have described. That is not meant as a criticism but more of an FYI.

 

I see three issues:

 

1. Who pays to recharter boys who are just about to cross over?

 

In many packs (and this is encouraged by our council professionals) the packs pay it, and then the boys simply transfer their registrations upon joining the troop. This is because, around here, boy scout troops recharter before cub scout packs, and so to do this the other way around would mean a boy would have a small window of time where he is neither chartered by the pack or the troop. (or, that the boy gets chartered by the troop before he actually crosses over from the pack, creating advancement record havoc)

 

2. Who pays for the awards/where does this money come from?

 

From your post, you are saying it comes directly from the webelos, right? Not from the pack finances? And I hear your point about why should a Tiger family be paying for an AoL award.

 

So let me ask - do you expect the W II families to pay for the B&G ceremony where you do their cross over? Do you make families at other rank levels pay directly for their son's other rank badges ("here's what that Tiger badge costs - please pay up?") ? If so, that's one thing. But I think your argument here isn't a solid one. Rather than "why should the pack pay for recognition of its members" maybe it should be "this is the pack's opportunity to recognize that some of its members have received Cub Scouting's highest award. When your turn comes, the pack will recognize you, too."

 

Maybe the real problem is in how dues are allocated? If dues are $100/year, what part of that goes into the pack account, and what part of that are you putting into the boy's personal account? Maybe you need to increase the percentage that goes into the pack's awards budget.

 

3. If a boy has money in a scout account with the pack, does that money follow him to his new troop?

 

Again here, different packs handle this differently. None of the packs my son was in had personal accounts. So even though, for three years running, he sold at least $1000 in popcorn and made considerable profit for the pack, as a W II when he left, all that money stayed with the pack. (Of course, our dues were considerably lower than yours, too, at about $30.)

 

Some packs do transfer that money, or at least part of it. It sounds like you need a clearer policy on this so that no one is left wondering at the end of the day, and this would spare you at least one of the disagreements you are having with your COR right now.

 

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At the end of the day - the disagreements you are describing seem like they may be coming from a mutual misunderstanding. The COR may not fully appreciate the pack's history of financial issues, and so may see your actions as unreasonably tight-fisted. You may not fully appreciate the CO's views on how money OUGHT to be allocated. A friendly meeting, with the financial books on the table might help you both.

 

The CO owns the organization - and its funding - so you will eventually "lose" if you really decide to butt heads on this. So it is worth figuring this out in an amicable manner.

 

[Eagle92]

Tough one. Every pack does things differently, and there are probably hundreds of ways to deal with this.

 

A few things I would do.

 

1) The $100 paid to the pack needs to cover recharter, AOL, any gifts/plaque given, and any awards given. So if belt loops, activity badges, etc were given out, then that should be taken out of the $100.

 

2) I would also pay the $1 tranfer fee to the council for the boys moving up.

 

3) I would talk to the Cubs to see if they want to give their DLs a thank you gift.

 

4) I would transfer any left over funds to the troop.

 

As to the COR, I would come up with an itemized report on what is being spent with the $100. tell him that it is important that they recharter with the pack, otherwise they may not be eligible to move up if they earned the AOL after the recharter process. Tell him that the pack dues does cover advancement for everyone, and that every Cub needs to pay their own way, even those moving up. There use to be a big emphasis onthatint he BSHB when I was groing up. Then tell the COR that volunteers like himself are valuable, and that to show appreciation for their services, you would like to work with the Webelos on getting thank you gifts. Lots of DLs pay out of pocket for stuff, and do make an impact onthe Cubs' lives, and a token of thanks would be apprciated.

 

Good Luck.

[Rockford8070]

Check the date your charter expires. Around here it's the 31st of March. So a scout is registered until that point if they don't recharter. If they cross over into Boy Scouts before that date they only need to pay a dollar for the transfer. After that date it's a Troop problem anyway. I know of no packs that recharter second year Webelos. They simply transfer them to a Troop.

[Eagle732]

We recharter on December 31. Most Webs cross around the end of Feb. to the beginning of March. Our guys pay 3 months prorated pack dues and the total recharter fee. They or their new troop pays the transfer fee after the cross. We use to have people complaining about paying all year for 3 months in the pack so this seemed to be the fairest way to handle it.

[Twocubdad]

I have to say that if my CO had recently bailed out the pack's finances, I would expect to have my COR knee-deep in the pack finances for awhile. I know you're working hard to make sure you don't need another bail out, but so is the COR. Yes, you're paying for the sins of your fathers, but for a while you should expect and be as accommodating as possible to the COR's hyper-interest in pack finances. You need to be in heavy-duty bridge building mode.

 

Does the pack have a formal budget? If not, you need one and you should sit down witht he COR and ask for and take his advice. Make sure the budget you give hime says DRAFT in big letters across the top so he knows he's not being asked for a rubber stamp. Include with the budget what you're doing with the Webelos IIs and how that translates into the budget. Get the COR and everyone else on board so you don't have the same problem next year.

 

As to the issue with the Webelos, as noted, much depends on your particular recharter date. Do your boys all typically cross over into one troop? If so, I'd put in a call to the troop committee chairman and see how you can best cordinate with the troop. Again, depends on recharter dates. And of course, if the troop is with the same CO, get the COR involved to coordinate.

 

But I have to say, as a parent, I would have a problem with paying $100 for only a short time remaining in the pack. Like Eagle732, we had a pro-rated dues schedule. I think both the WIIs and the Tigers got a break as neither earned as much bling as the other years.

 

That said, I don't have a problem with the pack paying for the WIIs' extras out of the general fund. As long as you're consistent from year-to-year everyone will get their turn at the table. But that really goes back to budget. Many units' budgets are built on an ala carte basis. If you're doing that, then the WIIs' pro rated, fair-share dues need to reflect their expenses, but not necessarily so if you're building a unified, across-the-board budget. It comes down to philosophy, and you all need to agree on one.

[ScouterAdam]

It's only $15 for re-charter fees for the boy. $12 for Boys Life. It goes to National, not Council. The rest is up to the Pack to charge what they want to charge. As said by others, every Pack is different.

 

This year we started Indivigual Scout Accounts (ISA). Boys get what they sell from Popcorn in there. Upfront dues upon joining is $45. That covers registration, Boys Life, Gym Rental and Den Leader Registration fees. $100 is charged on Dec 31st for the rest of the year. $50 for Webelos. This basically covers rank badges and the like. Boys buy their books, slides, scarves & uniform. We do have extra items just in case a boy cannot supply it. We will NEVER let a boy not participate if the family has money issues.

 

Money that is leftover at the end of the School year in the ISA is swept into the general fund for the Pack. This will go to unforseen expenses, Summertime Pack Events and other items we need to use it for. We really do not expect a huge surplus but it keeps the pack going at teh beginning of the year before we have money.

 

I cannot answer about the Webelos money transition to Troop. We do account for the shortened year with their pack dues.

 

There should be a transfer fee of $1 for the Troop to register the Webelos. It's $5 in your case. From what I understand it's a Council based fee that does not go to National. (Could be wrong).

 

Overall, the dues from the Scout pays for all rank advancement material. If they cannot, then the Parents are told a head of time. (Again if the scout cannot pay they do not.) It is not right that a Tiger pays for the Webelos.

 

 

*If a scout is not able to pay pack dues, it is expected within our Pack that the parent will step up and be of service to the Pack. They could be a Den Leader, Popcorn Kernal, host Blue & Gold or any other thing. Point is they are giving back.*

[Pack212Scouter]

That's a tough one, but it sounds like your COR is trying to run the program his way and not either how it needs to run or how the CO would want it run.

 

In the case of our Pack, dues covers recharter, Boys Life, estimated awards and Pack costs to the end of the School year. They bridge over before the end of the school year, but because Webelos pins cost alot more than beads, it evens out. None of their dues goes to the Troop because Pack dues are set to cover costs and no more. The boys get their AOL certificate and patch. If their family wants a plaque, they pay for that. If any money is left in their Scout account after they bridge, that is transferred to the Troop, but dues stay with the Pack.

 

You need to make sure that you have a set Pack budget. Printed out, what dues covers, what Pack costs are, what events have to pay for themselves. If that is done, you can sit down with the COR and say "See here. This is what is costs. It can't work the way that your saying or it will backrupt us again."

[saschuster]

Thank you for all of your comments!

 

A little history of our pack and the COR. He has been with the pack for 10 years when his son was a Cub. He saw it fall apart once and then worked to get it back after two years of not having a pack so I know that he means well BUT, the parents for the last three or four years have not been paying dues or have paid $20 or $30 which put their finances in a very bad place. He would ask for money to pay to send scouts to camp, scouts who had two working parents but had gotten so used to his handouts they expected to be given everything. He allowed parents with large families (mom, dad, scout, brother, sister and grandparents) camp with us without paying our camping fee and they took shirts we had made and never paid for them and he never went to them for the money so for that we lost on. So he has a big heart and doesn't want any of the boys to miss out but in the process, parents who have been loyal and paid their dues are paying for two or three families. I don't want the boys to miss out but at the same time, we are not the welfare office anymore and I feel like a collections agent trying to make some of these parents understand why they have to pay when in the past they didn't.

 

When we started our popcorn sale, we told all the parents if their scout sold $500 their dues were paid. Most of them didn't take us up on that but we did have several boys who sold the $500 and quite a few who went over that so it was definitely doable.

We don't have personal scout accounts but I did hand out something to everyone to show them the breakdown of where the dues go. The biggest part is for awards and I consider the Webelos badge and their AOL as part of their awards and our COR doesn't just because they always gave this to them in the past. So, that is where we are butting heads.

 

I know I sound stubborn and it sounds like it's all about the money but I can't let our account get to where it was and I know our Treasurer isn't going to let it happen so that is where the standoff is at. Anything left at the end of the year goes to our summer party, which isn't much because our packs spends a lot of awards but we make sure we don't have a huge surplus in the end but enough to cover us in the fall once school starts again.

[Beavah]

Yah, saschuster, I admire yeh for your hard work. But from afar, this looks to be a values question, eh? And values questions get decided by the CO through the COR. If the organization's values are that it's the community's responsibility to take care of the less fortunate, then those values are naturally goin' to be a part of the financial structure of their cub pack. If parents aren't willing to buy into that sense of charity because they don't like a "welfare state" or whatnot, then they really need to go elsewhere for their cub scouting. Try to find a CO/COR that shares their own values and places less of an emphasis on "help other people at all times."

 

Until then, your job as a volunteer for the pack is to help the COR achieve the mission, or resign as a volunteer. All kinds of positive ways yeh can help. Work up budgets, identify what kind of funding yeh need to make sure the awards and needs of all are met. Then work with da COR to obtain that funding. Maybe the COR gets an ongoing financial commitment from the CO, or finds a few donors. Maybe yeh re-think how you allocate fundraising and send it first to those most in need. Maybe yeh continue the current practice (which, to be honest, is what most colleges do, too), but yeh send donation letters to parents for the part of their dues that support other boys in the program so that they can at least get the tax deduction.

 

Your COR is being a kind, caring, noble fellow. If your CO is a church, that's what churches call us to do, eh? Be kind, caring, selfless, noble people. That's their mission. That's why you have a cub pack to attend and contribute to. Help 'em in their mission, don't fight 'em.

 

Beavah

 

[Twocubdad]

You may be right, Beav, and if so it then become incumbent upon the COR and IH to clearly communicate those values to the pack, not for the pack leaders to devine the CO's intent.

 

The baseline assumption with most scout leaders is the unit will pay it's own way through some combination of dues and fundraising. Certainly, there are folks out there, God bless 'em, who take on the added responsibility of operating units in under-priviledged areas. If you're signing up to go out and shake trees to raise money for the pack, you sure better know that going in.

 

From saschuster's description (and that's the only info we have to go on) sounds to me like the COR is just one of those big magnanimous guys who's uncomfortable asking folks for money. But if the CO really has an expectation that the unit run like a church (everyone chips in what they can and the leadership figures out how to make ends meet), the COR and IH have an affirmative obligation to explain that to the pack leadership. It doesn't sound as though that communication has taken place.

[Lisabob]

OK so a couple of different perspectives have been offered here. Either the COR is just a big-hearted guy who can't say no, or he is actively reflecting the will and values of the CO, whom he represents.

 

Either he knows and understands the financial implications of his actions (and they do or don't fit with the CO's wishes), or he doesn't know and understand the implications.

 

If he is reflecting the CO's wishes and he understands the financial implications, then you have basically nothing to work with.

 

In any other situation, you have a role as an educator. You can work with him to help him understand how his decisions are impacting the unit's bottom line. You can work with him to figure out what the CO's wishes truly are. You can teach him about budgeting, and explain why many families in the pack may view the status quo as a problem on an ethical, as well as financial, level. If you really think he is not reflecting the wishes of the CO itself, then you can request a meeting with the institutional head of the CO where you do the same thing.

 

After that, you have fewer options. The CO gets to pick its COR. If the CO either agrees with the COR, or won't address the problem that you see, then you need to either live with the CO's choice, or else find a way to serve scouting in a unit that fits better with your views.

 

Changing the CO's mind (if they have made up their mind already) or telling their representative how to represent the CO, are probably both losing propositions.

 

 

 

 

[qwazse]

Why should dues paid by a Tiger parent be used to pay for another scout's patch and a $20 - $40 plaque?

 

I agree. Drop the plaque. Maybe even drop the Webelos patch. Explain (if anyone asks) that some folks had a hard time keeping up with pack dues, so you decided to go old school and focus on essentials.

 

That will probably be the most likely decision when you lay out the what's in the treasury and what the net expense is of crossing over.

 

Also, consider going to monthly dues (at least for Webelos) the following year.

 

Our troop usually waives dues for cross-overs (we just take $1 transfer) with the understanding that the boy is a member in good standing with the BSA. If he is not, he has to pay the full price for registration anew.

 

We catch up with troop dues at the end of the year, once the young man has decided that we are worth maintaining a membership.

 

So, you might want to touch base with the troop committee to see what they are expecting.

[saschuster]

Well, me stepping down isn't an option. I thought about that the last time we had a huge disagreement that turned very ugly and I won't go into that except that it involved a meeting with the pastor of the church and the COR finally saying he would let me run the pack. I have had almost every leader we have tell me if I left, they were going to whatever pack I took my son to. I am not perfect by far but we have a strong pack now, we are very active in the community and I have recruited great leaders so I am going something right some of the time!

 

I WANT to help those who need it. We have a single grandmother raising her grandson who comes to every meeting and is at every camping trip. We have a single mother of three who doesn't receive help with her kids and we have a family that both parents lost their jobs. Those are the ones I think we need to focus on helping and keeping the boys in the program. The ones I have problems with are the ones who go out and but a $400 phone but tells me she will talk with our COR about the dues, she isn't paying it and the ones that buy a $1500 frame for a clubhouse and let me know he has always been helped in the past, why not now? And a mother who only brings her son if the local bar isn't having poker night and instead of helping him with scouts, she puts her money on the table and drinks every night. The ones who have needed the help in the past were ignored because they don't talk about their problems and even refused help this year when I approached them. They were ignored to help those who air their person and financial problems all over the place. I know they are adults and it's their money and their life to spend it the way they want but I feel it's my place to help those who need it and not those who expect it.

 

Yes, our COR has a big heart, for his pet projects, not for everyone. The church where we meet is also having financial problems but they will do anything to help with the pack but they also need the funds to help in the community, not just us.(This message has been edited by saschuster)

[Beavah]

Yah, saschuster, I think yeh have to be careful about judgin' other people, eh?

 

Sometimes a smartphone is a necessary business tool, even paid for by work. Sometimes that clubhouse is somethin' a friend provided at cost or in exchange for in-kind labor. More often than not, the lad whose mother is drinkin' at the bar every night is the one that needs scouting the most.

 

Even if that's not the case, as a volunteer in a youth program, yeh can't change adults. Yeh can't teach other parents how to budget better. Yeh can't tell other families what their priorities should be. Tryin' to will only cause you heartache and their kids grief.

 

All yeh can do is provide a scouting program that maybe teaches their kids a thing or two that their parents can't, eh? And in doin' that, make their hope for life a bit brighter.

 

God grant us all serenity to accept the things we cannot change, strength to do what we can for kids, and wisdom to know the difference.

 

If yeh really feel the pack is bein' taken advantage of, yeh refer that sort of thing to the COR and IH for their decision. That's not a call you want to make personally, nor is it one that should be aired in front of the whole committee.

 

Beavah