If You Could Change CS Advancement

[Eagle92]

Here are my thoughts.

 

1) "Outing is three-fourths of ScOuting," so we need to make Outing six-elevenths of Cub ScOuting. Cub Scout Outdoor Award and JtE is a good start.

 

2)As others have mentioned, more hands on action and less paperwork. My Wolves had a blast sewing their vests, or working on the cubmobile, but were not having fun with workign on the community safety. Mixed in some codes and that helped.

 

3) While a cub can earn the Sports and Academics loops and pins repeatedly, don't make a Webelos redo them as they are still a Cub Scout. Also include that info in the Webelos HB.

 

4) While we are using a spiral approach to teach things, i.e. repeating things every year, language needs to be in place to specify that more is expected at the next level. I.e.

 

5) This is more literature and supply but here it goes; Make sure the uniforms and literature have Tigers fully integrated, i.e. if they can earn the Horsemanship Belt Loop and Pin, then they should be able to ride a horse at camp like the rest of the cubs, no orange and blue socks, etc.

 

[dkurtenbach]

Well, if we're talking Cub Scout structure . . .

 

Remove Webelos Scouting from Cub Scouting. A Cub Scout pack would consist of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd grades (and Kindergarten, if the pilot program is a success).

 

The 4th and 5th graders would become a separate (small) unit utilizing the existing Webelos program; but the program would expand to include the summer (ideally, with summer camp) between 5th and 6th grades, with the boys joining Boy Scout troops in the fall as they enter 6th grade. No more Cub Scout pack stuff. The program would be expanded to add Boy Scout Tenderfoot requirements, so that if the Scout has been active, he will join the Boy Scout troop in 6th grade already holding Tenderfoot rank. (He could not work on any Boy Scout advancement or merit badges other than Tenderfoot while in the "Webelos" unit.)

 

Dan K.

 

[Eagledad]

Those are some good thoughts Dan, but let me explain my conerns. First there is a very (VERY) big difference of maturity between first and second grade. First graders can't read or write, and their attention span is very small. Infact first grade is where boys learn the displine of sitting still. The true impact of their maturity differences hit me when I watched a first grade dad carrying his thumbsuckig and crying son to our cub recruitmentment meeting. Kindergartners and first graders are still toddlers. A program for that age requires more than twice the number adults to run successfully than any other age.

 

I am open to your Webelos idea, but I have concern about pushing down some of the boy scout stuff because there is a risk of backlash at the troop level program. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Rarely are reactions a good thing. I really think the present Webelos program is perfect for that age. The less that is changed, the less risk of backlash.

 

Barry

[SeattlePioneer]

dkurtenbach

 

 

Webelos is already a separate program. So is Tiger Cubs.

 

 

I've suggested in another thread that large packs might consider having two pack meertings, one for Bears and Webelos, the other for Tigers Cubs and Wolves. I didn't get any support for that, but I still think it's an interesting idea.

 

My bias would be to tie the Webelos program as tightly to one or more Boy Scout Troops as practical. Webelos dens would meet with Scout troops fairly often, participating in some of the troop program that might be suitable and then working on Webelos requirements.

[dkurtenbach]

Barry, thanks for your comments. I understand your concern about parent resources, and how using up those resources for a first grade program (much less a kindergarten program) just accelerates burn-out. I'm just afraid the genie is already out of the bottle -- how long has the Tiger program been around? Twenty years, at least. Pulling Webelos out of the Pack would at least give parents/leaders a definitive end-point -- the end of 3rd grade. "Webelos" would be a time for fresh new leadership to step up.

 

I would suggest that it is not "pushing down" Boy Scout stuff in the sense that even younger guys would be doing it. The Scouts in the Webelos unit would start doing the Boy Scout stuff right about the same time they would be crossing over to a troop in the current program (early spring of 5th grade year). In fact, rather than starting it in the fall of the 5th grade year, as Webelos do now working on Arrow of Light, I'd push the Boy Scout stuff off to the spring. The Scouts would be working on Tenderfoot at the same time in the Webelos unit as they would work on it in the current program (spring of 5th grade year, summer after 5th grade year). And really, this would delay some Boy Scout stuff for these guys even more: they wouldn't be coming home from summer camp with merit badges -- those would have to wait until they got into the troop in 6th grade.

 

Dan K.

[dkurtenbach]

SeattlePioneer wrote: "Webelos is already a separate program. So is Tiger Cubs." Separate program materials from Wolf and Bear, yes -- but still part of a Cub Scout pack, still in the same unit. I want to put Webelos into their own units.

 

I'd like to get the Webelos out of the pack and away from the toddlers, but not yet into a troop. In fact, I want to stop moving 5th graders into Boy Scout troops -- still too young.

 

Dan K.

 

 

[Hawkrod]

Dan, I see where you are coming from and definitely agree about how immature Webelos can be (which is why I oppose early bridging as noted in the other thread). Unfortunately I do disagree on making it a seperate program solely because I think it would fail. The point of the Webelos program is success. The boys are the big fish in the pond and serve to drive enthusiasm in younger cubs. They do service and gain recognition, they become leaders. If they were in their own programs then many would be Lone Scouts or the units could end up with just a few boys. My unit has taken in Webelos from other units into our program because their Packs don't have enough boys. We prefer if the boy stays registered in his original unit but comes to our Den meetings and pays only den due to us. He usually comes to our Pack meetings to support his friends but he gets his advancement at his Pack meeting (where our boys try and go in support). For big stuff like AOL we combine it with his unit if we can. The boy becomes an example for his unit and gets recognition and shows leadership there (they usually have siblings in the other units or the unit is chartered by an organizing they are part of) but he is also part of our den and gets the support and is part of our boys peer group. I think we have been very successful in doing this and our Troop's current SPL was a member of my den but registered in another unit. It also brings units together and allows all of the local units to grow through interaction and provides a better program. If you had just Webelos in a unit then there would be a lot of small units and recognition would become a waste of time, why bother? JMO

[dkurtenbach]

Hawkrod, thanks for your comments. I've been in a pack with two Webelos dens in 4th grade and two Webelos dens in 5th grade, and I've been in a pack with just one 4th grade Webelos Scout.

 

I look at it this way: Currently, it only takes four adults and five boys to have a Scout unit. (I believe the minimum is even lower for LDS units -- 3 boys?) This would be no different than the many small troops we have in BSA. In some cases, the number of Webelos coming out of a large pack will be enough to have a Webelos unit from just that pack. In other cases, the Webelos from multiple packs will get together in a Webelos unit. In any event, it only takes two adults and two Scouts in order to do almost any activity.

 

Thanks again for your thoughts.

 

Dan K.

[Lisabob]

I agree with the general "get out and do more" sentiment. Get some of the report-writing stuff out of the requirements. Boys do not join cub scouts to write reports or make posters!

 

Take the required beltloops out of the Webelos program. By the time the kids get to Webelos, most of them aren't excited about beltloops any more. They've been there, done that. Find other ways to incorporate material into the webelos activity badges that don't rely on earning (or re-earning, yuck) a beltloop.

 

Citizenship and Fitness are really important, but those two Webelos activity badges as requirements in the same year (to earn Webelos rank) are deadly. Either revise the requirements to make them more bearable, or at least, make just ONE of the two a requirement to earn the Webelos badge and make the other a requirement for AoL instead.

 

Revise or replace the Computers beltloop. In an age where 6 year olds have i-thingies (ipods, ipads, etc) with more capacity than several desktops I've owned in my adult life and computing is moving away from physical locations to a "cloud" approach, the requirements for this loop seem very outdated.

[Eagle92]

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Tigers and Webelos Are NOT separate programs they are CUB SCOUTS BELONGING TO A PACK!

 

Ok I've calmed down now.

 

Seriously though, while Tigers were once a completely separate program from Cubs, they have been fully incorporated into cub scouting, requiring the Bobcat Badge prior to earnign the Tiger badge. They no longer have their own Law, Promise, and Motto. THEY ARE CUB SCOUTS PERIOD (now thats for emphasis )

 

I state the above because I have seen some Older Cubs and scouters say the exact thing, and tick Tigers and/or their parents off enough so that they leave scouting altogether. Not what we want not is it.

 

Yes Tigers are different from the rest of pack. BUT they are part of the pack, and hence Cub Scouts.

 

And yes Webelos also do additional things, let's face it they are suppose to be getting ready for Boy Scouts, and yes they have the option of wearing the Boy Socut uniform with Cub Scout modifications, they belong to a Pack , and are Cub Scouts. They still have a den leader, they still help the Pack go, etc.

[Horizon]

I am going through Wolves for the second time right now. My only concern is that the majority of the Advancement requirements are effectively all done at home, and are not geared to the outdoors either (the game with a purpose). I would love to take the requirements and wrap them in a package focused on the outdoors a bit more, even when at the Cub Level.

[BadenP]

To avoid repetition and boredom from setting in go back to the original concept of one school year for each rank. Making Webelos a two year program was ridiculous to begin with and has proven to be the weakest link in cub scouting. The purpose of Webelos is to introduce boys to a more mature program, more male leadership(if possible), get them somewhat involved in planning, and introduce them to skills and advancements they will develop more fully in boy scouts. Webelos is NOT supposed to make them into boy scouts.

 

All of this can easily be accomplished in one year, two years of the same activities leads to boredom and high dropout rates, as we have been witnessing since the late 80's.

After one year of Webelos the boys are still excited and eager to move into boy scouts, leaders have to stop worrying how many badges the Webelos must earn or the Arrow of Light, which by the way can be easily earned in one year with a quality program.

[drmbear]

Our elementary school has boys all the way through fifth grade - why would we think we have to separate them? Cub Scouts is run as a den program anyway. Tigers actually DO Cub Scouting with other Tigers. Bears DO Cub Scouts with Bears. Webelos DO Cub Scouts with other Webelos. We just get together as a pack for ONE monthly meeting for recognition, craziness and fun. I'm usually using the Webelos to support pack activities, since they should have a little more experience, to help kick off anything new or different. Doesn't a Scout troop also count on the older boys, who actually know stuff, to actually plan and teach things? I know I did that when I was a kid. But even troops are supposed to be a patrol based programs, so Cub Scouts really isn't all that different.

 

Yes, we also occasionally have pack events, that bring everyone together, but even at those events the den leaders work with their dens, and anything I do a s Cubmaster for the whole pack is meant not only to entertain and engage 1st graders, or 5th graders, but also parents and siblings, and grandparents, and everyone else that's there. So since you are wanting to pull 4th and 5th graders out of the pack, do you also want to eliminate all the parents, since they are really way past 5th grade? The program is set up as a family program, and I know I consider that when I am planning pack meetings and other events. On the other hand, except for the Tigers, the den programs can really be focused on the boys, and they should be.

[Eagledad]

>>Making Webelos a two year program was ridiculous to begin with and has proven to be the weakest link in cub scouting.

[Eagle92]

'Dad,

 

Webelos was 1 year, 5th grade up until approx 1989. Tigers was a separate program until that time and was in 2nd grade. The Cub Scouts lasted from 3-5 grades.