Where did they go?????

[BadenP]

On the Cub level they are gone because there is a real lack of committment on the parents part to help the pack leaders deliver a solid program, pack leaders who are almost forced into the positions at recruitment nights but they lack any real committment to the program or the kids, and a written program from National that lacks any real imagination, flexibility, or interest for the boys.

 

On the boy scout level they are gone due to too much adult control of the program instead of using the program designed by BadenPowell many troops are little more than older versions of Cubs. Unfortunately the new trainings, especially WB21C, continue to make this problem even worse.

 

On the Venturing level they are gone because 95% of the adult leaders do not understand what the program is all about and run the crews like scout troops. The reference material,handbooks again lack any real vision or purpose or interests of older teens.

 

IMHO Nationals recent changes to all three programs over the last decade have erroded all three programs to critical levels, the lack of parental involvement, myopic leadership from National down to the local level, a total lack of understanding of what really appeals to kids, preteens, and older teens, and a totally watered down scouting experience is what is killing off scouting today.

[AKdenldr]

Hello all,

 

Great discussion. I didn't mean to hit a sore spot with you scout leaders. I don't think my pack is entitiled to DCs. It was just an example of a lack of exposure and programming between the Cub and Boy scouting programs here. We have never had a DC in six years of history. I'd like one so my Webs can see and associate with a boy scout, I don't need one to present my program. In the past the gap between what the boys and their parents know and the leap to Boy Scouts has been too wide. I hoped to narrow that gap to increase bridging which is the topic of this discussion.

 

Yes Eagle732, I contribute to my older son's troop experience. (Troop has its own dysfunctions -- so not much help there.) But really, should I have to sign up as an ASM, train, invest more time in scouting (and dilute the success of my Web den) just to get my Webelos more exposure to boy scouts? Nah, not going to happen -- I'll just accept a lower level of bridging. Really, there is only so much one volunteer can do.

 

(And before anyone says it, yes I have considered my older son and his buds but they is a first year scouts with their own struggles and that doesn't meet my purposes listed above.)

 

 

[Eagle732]

Wish I could get one Scout to DC from my troop. The only one interested has a brother in a Pack with ties to a large troop. I asked if he wanted to DC little brothers den but mega troop already has it covered.

 

Mega troop (100+) does assign a DC to each den of the pack under the same Charter Org. That's why they're a mega troop and we're a little insignificant troop.

[Basementdweller]

I am hearing a lot of excuses here. Den Chiefs, program, webelos, wolf and bear years, sports, competing activities.

 

But ultimately doesn't it fall to the Den Leader.

 

 

Who is responsible for an interesting and exciting program?

 

We have listed a lot of puzzle pieces, Now we just need to put them together into a solution.

 

 

 

[dkurtenbach]

Clemlaw wrote: "Personally, I think we should worry less about it. We can do a good program for little kids (Lion-Tiger), followed by a good program for the middle grades (Wolf-Bear), followed by a good program for older elementary kids (Webelos), followed by a good program for middle school (Boy Scouts through First Class or so), followed by a good program for high school (Venturing, higher boy scout ranks, leadership in a troop, OA, etc.) I'm not sure where they exact cutoffs should be, but you get the idea--Tiger Cubs is very different from Order of the Arrow."

 

Agreed. However, I think the biggest obstacle to this approach is our structure of three distinct programs (Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting, Venturing), each with their own distinctive elements and traditions. Until we can have just one program with multiple internal levels (like a youth baseball league, for instance), it will be difficult to tweak the program progression. And of course the three programs are represented by separate units, which are sponsored by a wide variety of chartered organizations. Some COs sponsor all three types of units, some more than one unit of the same type, some just one unit. Making the structure fit the program could be a mess.

 

A second structural issue is that both Cub Scouting and Venturing are broad-based programs with possible activities in many different areas -- not just outdoors (see the Webelos activity badges, for example, and the Venturing Sports, Arts & Hobbies, and Religious Life Bronze awards). The program in the middle, Boy Scouting, is far more limited: it is an outdoor program. Other areas of interest are represented only by merit badges, which are pursued by individual Scouts (for the most part) rather than being a unit program activity. Boys who enjoy non-outdoor activities can do a lot of things in Cub Scouts, but when they hit 5th grade, BSA no longer has anything for them -- unless they want to come back in a few years and join a non-outdoor crew.

 

Dan K.

[dkurtenbach]

Basementdweller wrote: "I am hearing a lot of excuses here. Den Chiefs, program, webelos, wolf and bear years, sports, competing activities. But ultimately doesn't it fall to the Den Leader."

 

Of course. An enthusiastic den leader can overcome all of the issues we've discussed. Without an enthusiastic den leader, the program is mediocre at best, and boys leave. In the program as it exists today, the burden is all on the den leader. So all we have to do is figure out how to get more den leaders who are ethusiastic about the program and stay that way (that is, don't burn out) for longer periods of time.

 

Dan K.

 

[bear dad]

Den leaders should not take all the heat for this. You can have good, enthusiastic well meaning Dl, but boy/parent need to be factored in also.Why do we always blame the DL?

 

In my case I can get outside with boys alot, do projects,want my webelos to go camping as much as possible. Schedule things all the time, but LIL Johnny don't show up? So we blame a DL?

Know some things is a cost thing so I don't try to make everything about cost. going camping, etc... But then boys want to camp?

 

In our area we can camp councils campgrounds for free, so only cost would be for food, gas. There is 1 about 20 minutes from us. We could make it free to them, and still will have boys not showing up. Lot of the problem is parents, they can't, won't help out when needed. Cubs is still family based.

 

So then we hear that Johnny is not having fun and drops out, because the poor DL that he has. DON'T BUY that Excuse!

Maybe when start to have boys join, needs to be explained more that cubs is family base, and more you put into it, perhaps more you will get out of it?

 

Stop bashing the DL first thing. Just my thoughts

[dkurtenbach]

It's worth the emphasis.

[Eagledad]

>>Stop bashing the DL first thing. Just my thoughts

[bear dad]

barry,

Thanks for the feedback. I will agree that alot of problems is lack of training.With regards to training, how is someone new to scouts know what is, or isn't good training? Is there something out there to measure it by?

 

I been to some training things and don't think they was much help other to say I went thru it to have a card to show for it.

One thing I found out VERY Quickly, there is NOT A LOT Help from our council with things.

 

Our unit have seen our UC 1 time in almost 2 years. We don't get a lot info stuff that would be helpful to us.

[clemlaw]

>>>Boys who enjoy non-outdoor activities can do a lot of things in Cub Scouts, but when they hit 5th grade, BSA no longer has anything for them --

[Twocubdad]

Let me add this to the conversation --

 

From the afore-mentioned Sports Illustrated article, youth baseball has a 60% dropout rate after six years. Sound familiar?

 

So while we true-believers here worry about the loss of every scout, is a 70% drop out rate really a problem, or is that the standard curve for most youth activities?

 

[dkurtenbach]

Clemlaw wrote: "But starting in about 5th grade, we don't have something for everyone. There's not necessarily anything wrong with that. If a former Cub Scout is a good member of the baseball team, or football team, or marching band, or whatever, then I would say that we did a successful job with that kid. He probably never would have been a Boy Scout anyway. I wouldn't worry too much if he doesn't spend his entire youth under the umbrella of the BSA brand name."

 

I agree, absolutely. But BSA still has the goal and mindset of retaining every boy, even if we don't have a suitable program for all of them. There is not a willingness to just shrug off 50, 60, or 70 percent of Webelos dropping out of Scouting. Imagine standing up at Roundtable or at Webelos Den Leader training and saying, "Look, don't worry about transitioning boys from Webelos to Boy Scouting. Just promote Boy Scouting for what it is, encourage the outdoorsy kids to join a troop, and wish the other ones well." How would that go over?

 

Dan K.

[perdidochas]

". Imagine standing up at Roundtable or at Webelos Den Leader training and saying, "Look, don't worry about transitioning boys from Webelos to Boy Scouting. Just promote Boy Scouting for what it is, encourage the outdoorsy kids to join a troop, and wish the other ones well." How would that go over? "

 

 

Sounds like a good idea to me.

[AZOwl]

I just posted a long, rambling message in a different forum (open forum program) that talks about a lot of these things...I struggle with retention and recruitment on a daily basis and it frustrates me...

 

I'll summarize my thoughts here, though...

 

The biggest issue with recruitment and retention is not DL burnout, but is parental committment. If we were just Babysitters of America, we'd keep every kid. Drop and Run? Great, we're all over that. But ask them to stay for a meeting? Good luck with that in many cases. But we expect parents to be involved in their kid's lives, and frankly, many of them just abdicate their responsibility to 'someone else'. Let Church, or School, or Sports, or TV, or Video Games raise our children...In many cases, I see the boys having a great time, but the parents can't be bothered to bring them to meetings. I am fortunate to have a good, solid Troop committee with dedicated parents, but my Pack committee is much less robust.

 

The second factor is sports. In my community, and I'm sure in others, Football season starts in late July and ends in Nov/Dec, with 5 day a week practices and games on Saturday. Baseball and soccer are a couple of lesser time-killers, with 2-3 days a week and Saturdays, with tournament teams and playoffs. How are parents supposed to fit in Scouts with that kind of activity. In my own life, this fall I had my two boys playing soccer, with practices on different nights, karate, with classes on different nights, plus Scouts...It was brutal for about 8 weeks, but at least it was only 8 weeks. But many parents seem to think that Sports will teach boys everything that Scouts will...I know parents that seem to think if there is a sport-season, their son needs to participate in it. Sure, they may get a few things from Sports, but nothing like what Scouts can teach them. But how do we convince them of that? Back to them having to care enough to be part of their kid's lives. In my older son's soccer team, there was a girl whose parents never showed for practices, never showed for games...Guess it was a cheap babysitter for her.

 

I am the CC of both the Pack and Troop, and from what I have seen, we are almost unique in that the Pack and Troop are tightly linked. We all meet at the same time and place, we have joint Openings, our BS Courts of Honor at held at Pack Meetings so that the youngers can see what the olders are doing. My SM is also my CM (not exactly by choice, but I don't have anyone else to take the position). When the Cub Scouts go on a hike, the Boy Scouts can go along, and boys in both units earn mileage towards their hiking awards. When our Bears transition to Webelos, we make a strong transition. They are no longer Cub Scouts, but Boy Scouts in Training, and part of a Webelos Patrol, and we expect them to start acting more like Boy Scouts, and also to start working more independently, just like they will as Boy Scouts. We are trying to provide a seamless transition from Cubs to Boy Scouts. We use the 18 month Webelos program, but if high-achievers are ready to move up to the Troop, AND are mature enough, they can do so early at the age of 10 if they have AOL.

 

Another thing we are fortunate enough to do is to keep the same Tiger den leader each year. My wife, bless her, made the decision several years ago that she would stay back and work with the new Tigers, instead of 'moving up'. This gives incoming Tiger parents an entire year to get comfortable with Scouts, so that one of them is ready to take over when it comes time to bridge to Wolves. By the way, she is also the Advancement Chair and Pack Trainer...Who knew it took hours to get belt loops, and rank awards, and track advancement done.

 

In short, even though my DL's work to provide what I see as a world-class program, and we are doing everything we can to retain youth, ultimately its up to the parents to see the worth of Scouting and invest and engage in their kid's lives.

 

And let's talk about Woodbadge...I'll be honest, I think WB is at least as valuable a tool for Cub leaders as it is for Troop leaders. If a Cub leader immerses themselves into the Patrol and Troop method at WB, they are better able to tailor how they present their program to their dens to make the transition from CS to BS easier. I'm not saying that Cubs are just junior Boy Scouts, but if we equip our Cub Scouts with the skills they need to succeed as Boy Scouts, we are more likely to retain them. I am fortunate enough to have three members of our organization attend WB and work their Ticket, and they have caught the vision of WB.

 

So, back to the topic...Where did they go? Even with a world-class program, its up to the parents to see the value of Scouting. If your program is weak, den leaders unenthusiastic, then try and fix that part. But in the end, without parents, we don't have boys.