Where did they go?????

[Twocubdad]

I don't think we will make major advances on the transitional membership losses until some major structural changes are made to the overall program. This is something I've given a good bit of thought to over the years. After pretty full careers as both Cub Scout and Boy Scout leader, I've always thought that when I "retire" I'd like to go back to be a Webelos leader.

 

Let's review:

 

1) There's the problem of leader burnout which has been previously discussed. This is attributable to the idea that den leaders take a den and track along with their sons for five years. How did that come about? Is it just the "death grip" bbender writes about? Back in the day, "Den Mother" was a two-year gig, Wolf and Bear. Webelos was a separate den run by a couple of dads. A linear process compared to today's batch process. Maybe that was just the way my pack ran. I'm guessing things changed when the program shifted from a birthday-based membership to a grade based membership. Maybe some of the historians can put this into better perspective.

 

2) I'll disagree sightly with Barry regarding the Webelos program -- while I think the program elements laid out for Webelos are generally appropriate, there needs to be more structure and direction between the Webelos I and Webelos II years.

 

My observation of Webelos dens has been even with good, enthuasiatic leaders, Webelos I dens jump on the "good" activity pins -- Ourdoorsman, Readyman, Handyman, Engineer -- early because that's all the fun stuff. Fine. But Webelos II then becomes a throw-away "year" which is acutally just six months anyway. September thru November is spent finishing the dull Arrow of Light requirements which were put off last year. After a break for the holidays, the six weeks or so left before crossover looks like the last 10 days of school for a high school senior.

 

3) I've written about this before but it's worth repeating. The jump from Cubs to Scouts comes at exactly the wrong time. I've mentioned an old Sports Illustrated article before, but I found it recently clearing out some old files. It's in a special report on 10-year-old athletes in the October 6,2003, issue. It's along the lines of the old "Ages and Stages" session of the old New Leaders' Essentials course. It makes the point that around age 10 children develop the ability to somewhat objectively judge their own competence at various activities. The example from the article is an 8-year-old baseball player who never hits a pitch all year, but is still somehow convinced he'll play for the Yankees one day. By age 11 that kid understands he sucks at baseball, regardless how much sunshine his parents and coaches blow up his shorts. Consequently, at 10 or 11 kids begin making their own decisions about the activities in which they excel and enjoy. They begin to specialize and focus on fewer things that are important to them.

 

 

Just as they're evaluating what they do and don't want to do, BSA lights up a huge EXIT sign we call crossover. They've reached the pinnacle of Cub Scouting, earned the highest award possible. You can continue on if you want, but you'll start at the bottom of the heap, have to new leaders, a greater time commitment and, if you listen to the sales pitch, you better really like camping.

 

And we wonder why half of them quit.

 

4) Administratively, we make the transition as big of a pain-in-the-butt as humanly possible. If I've been a Scout for five years, why do I have to fill out a new application to join a troop? In our council recharter all falls in late winter and early spring (different months for different districts). In our district recharter comes in Feb. Boys typically cross over into troops in March. Do you recharter with the pack and transfer? Do you let your pack membership lapse and rejoin when you get to the troop?

 

Aside from creating more work for the units, this mess makes it almost impossible for DEs and district membership chairmen to get any sort of real-time data on the boys who dropped between pack and troop. Unless something has changed in the past couple years, the only to get a true drop report for Webelos-to-Scouts was to take the drop report from the pack -- which included ALL the Webelos IIs as if they had all quit Scouting -- and manually compare that against the troop rosters to see where they went. Multiply this times all the packs and troops in the district.

 

I'm encouraged, however, that one point in the new BSA strategic plan references "seamless registration" between packs and troops as a step in this direction. Hope that's a goal which is met.

 

 

 

My King-for-a-Day solution is drastic. First, make Webelos two full years. Year one looks and feels a little more like Cubs and culminates at Webelos Resident camp. Year two looks a whole lot like the Boy Scout New Scout Patrol program and culminates at a week of Boy Scout camp with the troop. I would go back to the pre-1973 arrangement where Arrow of Light and Tenderfoot requirements were identical. In 1970, when I walked into my first troop meeting with my brand-new Arrow of Light patch, they put me through my paces then handed me a Tenderfoot pin.

 

To facilitate this I would make Webelos an independent program like Varsity and Venturing, but with much stronger ties between the troop and pack than now. Sounds like a contradiction, but bare with me. To do that will require a new model for chartered organizations and units, more the way the UK runs its "Scout Groups." When a chartered organization takes on a Scout Group, it should adopt the whole program, soup to nuts; Tigers to Venturing. The goal is to build a seamless and progressive program where the boys have the opportunity to easily advance from one unit to the next.

 

Besides the advantages of easing transitional loss, there are all sorts of advantages of whole Scout Groups sharing resources and leaders. How much easier would the Den Chief program be if there were a coordinated calendar between pack and troop? Cost savings in the pack utilizing troop camping equipment and expertise? Leaders with particular expertise and/or certification easily serving across the board?

 

Draw backs? Sure. Obviously, there will have to be some opting in and out to accommodate the existing, stand-alone units. But we make that sort of accommodation in other areas of the program now. And how many Scoutmasters with small, stand-alone troops hasn't wished for a "feeder" (I prefer the term "brother") pack.

 

I will admit moving large sections of the first year Boy Scout program to Webelos II will be seen as another shift down of the program. But we've been doing that for year. But you can also argue that better prepared and enthusiastic Webelos should allow troop to step up their game.

 

So someone be sure to tell me when it's my turn to be king.

 

(PS -- I'm just now reading Clem's post. His description of how his old Webelos den worked, with one foot in the Boy Scout troop, is a huge step toward what I would like to accomplish with all this.)

[Scoutfish]

To go along with what TwoCub Dad said:

 

There is a element of "Is this it?" as you go through Cub Scouts too.

Brand new Tiger Cubs think it is the most awesome thing when they go to camp and get to shoot a BB gun at a bona fide gun range completel with a rangemaster.

 

It's awesome that they get to shoot an honest to goodness real bow and arrow too.

 

The archery and BB guns are the creme de la creme of the camp activities.

 

As a second year Webelos, the same two activities are the creme de le creme of activities ..except by now, most of those scouts have nicer, newer, better, and more powerfull versions at home.

 

At the last campout we ent to, my 9 year old Webelos son shot a Red Ryder spring air B gun at a paper target 15 feet away,and a foot off the ground. Archery wasn't even open.

 

You could see the boredom on his face( in that activity), but what else could he do? Other activities were geared towards new and younger scouts.

 

After we got home Sunday afternoon, he went out and shot his 830 feet per second air rifle at target 120 feet away. The next afternoon, after I got of work, we shot HIS .22 semi-auto rifle at soda cans full of water.

 

I'm not saying that camps should have a bunch of scouts shooting semi auto rifles, but there needs to be more degrees of seperation and more advancement in activities as they rank up.

 

Not entirely, but for the most part, Webelos can't do that much more than Tiggers. Sure, they can den camp, and they can climb a wall ( if your camp has one) and use a Bow saw.

 

As far as day riding bikes...most all of them do that anyways at home of with friends. Nothing gained there!

 

So there are a couple of things that can do, but then what?

 

 

Anybody still wonder why they might want to go to the trading post and buy Cowtails and get jacked up on Dr Pepper?

 

It's either that or make macaroni sculptures with the rest of the scouts.

[moosetracker]

TwoCubDad - Don't know about elongating Webelos and sending them to the troop just before summer camp. We had one Webelos leader do that, and it was a mess for the troop. Trying organize their signup for camp, the Webelos didn't want to make any decisions until they got to the troop to figure out if they would be comfortable with the troop to go off with them for a week. (Yes we did have other things that we coordinated with them, camporees & a November Thanksgiving campout they are invited to.).. But we could not sign them up with the other scouts, get health forms from them, or figure out what they wanted to sign up for in merit badges or other summer programs.. Just as well.. When they did cross over the parents or kids (no sure who) decided they were not comfortable to do summer camp with us. So they didn't.. Few (I almost think) none, stayed in the program long.. (We are a troop that basically does alot Spring & Fall, but except for summer camp, we hault the program over the summer months.. Therefore when the program restarted in the Fall very few Webeloes were in attendance.

 

It might work for troops that have a good program throughout the summer. Don't know, just know this was an horrible time break. I would think shortening it to December crossover and starting the new year in the troop much better.. You always talk about Webeloes being too long and Boys getting board of the program before they get to Boy Scouts.. Making it longer makes no sense.

 

Scoutfish - I know our Cub scout camp did have extra activities for the older boys.. We lucked out and they kept building new attractions yearly too while my son was in it. But I almost want to say that one of the perks of Webeloes was throwing hatchets at targets.. I think the BMX bikes was another, which you mentioned. If Webeloes can't throw hatchets, then I may be wrong, but I remember something like this my son looked forward to when he was a Bear and looking forward to the Webelos camping years. I don't think he was that into the bikes, there was something else.

[Twocubdad]

No, Moose, but let me clarify.

 

My ideal program would be for Webelos II to be a seamless, year-long transition to Boy Scouting goal that by summer camp the Webelos have become fully integrated into the troop and are ready for camp with the troop. Now, we're try to do that in the three months between crossover and camp. But that's besides the point. The real purpose isn't to better prepare the Webelos for Boy Scouts, it's to keep them engaged until we get them there.

 

The idea of making Webelos a separate unit isn't to segregate them from the pack and troop, it's to give them and equal opportunity to participate in both. Now, it's almost all geared toward the pack. The two Webelos years needs to be a slow fade from black to white, or from blue to green, as the case may be. At the end of Webelos II the boys should be fully integrated into the troop, ready and rarin' to go.

 

(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

[SeattlePioneer]

Y'all need to come to our January Roundtable.

 

A Scouter who was one of the district's best Cubmasters and is now working to be one of it's best Scoutmasters is going to be making a presentation on Webelos:

 

 

"What to do with Webelos!

 

 

By the time a Cub Scout hits Webelos age, they've probably done most of the annual Pack activities a couple times, and are looking for new adventures. They'll also be eyeing the Boy Scout program, but may have questions or concerns. We'll give you some great ideas to spice up your Webelos program and avoid the "been there done that" syndrome. We'll also provide good suggestions on learning more about Boy Scouts and getting your Scouts excited about crossing over."

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bear dad]

All this talk about the Webelos is some of the reason my son wants to go BS as soon as he can.Agree on some of the things said in this topic. Den leaders can get burned out quickly, on other hand I am a WDL that wants to camp and be outdoors as much as possible, with me it is parents that can't, won't or ??? to make it possible for johnny to be there.

 

Case in point, I did a Tigers den once, on 1 of the go see it we went to a cool park, I went to pick up mom and son so boy could go, pull up at house and mom asks "Do I Have to COME?"

 

So in my case have boys that can go earlier than others ans they been to meetings done what they need to do. I can't see holding back a boy till a magic date just so he can go. Adding on more time in cubs, might make him can his mind to go any futher. Just my thoughts.

[Basementdweller]

I think the crux of the problem is the leadership is so transitory.

 

Lets face it you have them for 4 years maybe........

 

They are just starting to get good when you loose them.

 

BS leadership is around long enough to get leadership. current SM 10 years. CC 14 years treasure 22 years. COR 30 something years. Me paltry 6 years. of course add the youth years and I almost get 16 years.

 

[Scoutfish]

 

 

Good call Basement!

Also figure as your experienced DL's leave the program AND you have a big surge in Tigers and Bears...you end up witha bunch of non experienced leaders planning the program for the whole pack.

 

 

Know what I mean?

 

Last year, the number of Wolves doubled and we had around 30 new Tigers join up at roundup.

 

That equated to 5 tiger DLs nad 2 new Wolf Dl's.

 

At a leadership meetuing, that's 7 votes that have no experience.

 

BNot saying they ruined the program, mind you, but the potential is there when the experiened DL's that finally have gotten good at what they do leave,and the new people who are activity shy step in.

 

Some parents have to learn that a kid won't die from getting muddy or dirt on their faces - although I have heard some CDC- grade quality arguments otherwise

 

By the time parents learn that kids get dirty, get scrapes and also that it is okay to let kids fail and make mistakes..those parents are crossing out and becoming great troop committee members.

[Eagledad]

The discussion went a strange direction to me. While most admit that the problem is burned out adults, the solution was fixing the Webelos program? Something is a miss, unhappy adults equals fix Webelos? Got to make the adults excited to get excited cubs.

 

I enjoyed reading your post twocubdad, but I dont really agree with it much. But let me first say that I researched this area of the program for a few years. I interviewed hundreds of scouts and many dozens of Den Leaders. So I have pretty good feel for it.

 

>>2) I'll disagree sightly with Barry regarding the Webelos program -- while I think the program elements laid out for Webelos are generally appropriate, there needs to be more structure and direction between the Webelos I and Webelos II years.>Just as they're evaluating what they do and don't want to do, BSA lights up a huge EXIT sign we call crossover. They've reached the pinnacle of Cub Scouting, earned the highest award possible. You can continue on if you want, but you'll start at the bottom of the heap, have to new leaders, a greater time commitment and, if you listen to the sales pitch, you better really like camping.

 

And we wonder why half of them quit.

[BadenP]

There are several problems with Cubs, as others have pointed out too much repetition in the early ranks, Webelos was originally a one year program and should have stayed that way. Webelos leaders need to be selected more carefully than just a warm body to fill a spot and they should be given the same training as scoutmasters. Two years of webelos would be boring to ANY kid and yet National seems oblivious to this huge loss of cubs at Web II stage of scouting. The entire cub program needs to re-evaluated and redesigned from the National down to the local levels and soon or troops will have even meager numbers of new recruits for their shrinking ranks.

[83Eagle]

The points about the program being repetitous are well taken. The food pyramid in both Tiger and Wolf...really? And like they didn't cover that in school well before you had to cover it in the badge book. You all know the many other examples out there.

 

Having the same Den leader for 4-5 years can be a drawback. There are different skill sets needed for Tigers versus second year Webelos and not everyone is good at spanning that range. Not everyone is the outdoorsy type and that becomes increasingly important over time. Not to sound sexist, but if 2nd year Webelos have the same "Den Mother" who was helping them do leaf rubbings as Tigers...it can be a real yawner for the kids.

 

Regarding separating Tigers from the Pack, I don't think that's the way to go. Most grade schools are K-5 and the K group is already disappointed when the pre-roundup and Boy Talks come to school that they can't join. Girl Scouts handle this with no problem--Daisies are kindergarteners, and Service Unit activities combine all the ages. From what I've seen and been told, the older girls don't really get bothered by events that involve the "little kids" until about 6th grade, at which point they're the equivalent to BS anyway. It can be a challenge designing a program to span a large age group, but that doesn't mean it the rank should be split off.

[dkurtenbach]

I don't see any major problem with the program content of the Cub Scouting program. The issues I see are really about how that content is delivered, and the structure of the program. Program delivery issues are things like the overly large (I think) proportion of tell/explain/discuss requirements in relation to hands-on activities, and things like what the program asks den leaders to do, and what BSA wants den leaders to know and when it wants them to know it. Structural issues are things like how many years the program covers, what years are covered, and critically (I think) the organizational relationship with Boy Scouting.

 

Since Cub Scouting is by far the largest of BSA's traditional program -- nearly twice the membership of Boy Scouting -- something good is happening there. Indeed, I can't help but think that part of the "why do they go?" problem stems from a failure of BSA to understand that Cub Scouting should be considered on its own merits as a self-contained program with its own goals and outcomes, and not in relation to the Boy Scouting program. If we had no expectation that Boy Scouts come from Cub Scouts, how would that change how we think about both programs?

 

 

[Eagledad]

>>Girl Scouts handle this with no problem--Daisies are kindergarteners, and Service Unit activities combine all the ages. From what I've seen and been told, the older girls don't really get bothered by events that involve the "little kids" until about 6th grade,

[clemlaw]

>>>>a failure of BSA to understand that Cub Scouting should be considered on its own merits as a self-contained program with its own goals and outcomes, and not in relation to the Boy Scouting program. If we had no expectation that Boy Scouts come from Cub Scouts, how would that change how we think about both programs?

[Lisabob]

That's a good point. I know of many cub leaders who run very good cub programs, and who get ticked off real fast when some boy scout leader type makes the (arrogant) assumption that cubbies are just a holding period for the "real" program. I think a lot of folks who take that attitude also have not spent much time working with a good cub program.