Cub Scout Patrols

[83Eagle]

Our Bear den has grown to be somewhat unweildly at 13 scouts. It works, but it was easier to get things done when the group was smaller. So after talking about it, the DL and ADL are going to form 2 "patrols." The den still meets together (the time works for everyone and the space is plenty big), it's just a way to make things managable and also hopefully move the boys toward more self-organization/direction. So don't read this as bona fide Boy Scout Patrols--maybe "dens within a den."

 

I'm wondering if others out there have done this and, if so, I'm looking for helpful suggestions as to how to make this work best.

 

(Please note--what I notice in these forums is when someone asks a question there's usually a few waiting in the woodwork who start bopping you upside the head with various rule and regulation citations and generally try to make you feel stupid. If you don't have anything constructive to add, then please don't add anything at all.)

 

[Scoutfish]

Well, offical rules say..blah, blah blah, blah..

 

Okay, While Webelos Scouts can use patrol patches instead of den numbers, they are still considered a den and not a patrol. Cub scouts does not have patrols.

 

 

But having said that...we realize that - at least in the case of Webelos Dens - we can "PRETEND" they are patrols or something to that effect.

 

So nothing changes except they vote on a patrol patch and name. They think it's cool, brings trhem closer to making deciseons as a working group, and everything runs smoother in theory, right?

 

So why not use it for Bears? Again, not really patrols ( as you already noted) and it's not offical ( again - as you already noted) and as with the case with Webelos..they are still refered to as a den.

 

The only thing I would say is this: Unlike Webelos who as a den , get to wear patrol patches instead of a den number patch, your Bears can not and should not. But after that..if it works, go for it.

 

There are bigger points and issues to the program than to worry about a den being broken down into two patrols within the 1 den.

 

If it works for you, and it helps the boys in the program..then have at it!

 

 

Edited because I spell as good as your average dachshund!(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

[tdk101]

My sons Wolf den grew to 18. We got two ADL for the den and each week they split into 3 groups - the groups change weekly. The boys then rotate through the 3 leaders. It works for most activities. They are still one den but get into smaller groups for activities. May not be the perfect solution but it seems to work for us. We realize that down the road, the boys may need to be split into 2 dens.

 

For whatever reason, this den saw a ton of new recruits (9 new scouts) this year. We have an awesome leader. The 2 dads that stepped up to be ADL had boys that were active last year. We are working on getting some of the new parents to help out too.

[FScouter]

There is the "proof" that a den of 13 boys, or 18 boys does not work. BSA discovered that years ago and that is why the "book" recommends only 6-8 boys per den. The best constructive advice is to simply fast forward beyond reinventing the wheel and go form two dens with two den leaders.

 

[John-in-KC]

Get the adults you need, and form the right number of dens

 

There is a reason the United States Armed Forces work with a direct supervision system of 5-7 people accountable to 1 leader. It's called human ability to span control.

 

Scouting discovered its truth a century ago.

 

Do the right thing. Recruit the leaders and den chiefs you need, and get your span down to 6-8.

 

I know a Cub Scout Pack that has subdivided into Tribes. They did that for a reason. The Pack is the oldest chartered unit in the Council. It's Pack 1, really and truly. There are two complete sets of program people, and the two major elements (both 60 youth +) meet separately.

 

That's different from working directly with youth.

 

Enough said.

[83Eagle]

Thanks for the advice based on experience of handling larger dens.

 

Regarding the advice to split into two bona fide dens, that is not an option that we are going to pursue. Or, fine, call them two dens if you will--we are going to have two Bear Dens, with two different Den Leaders. It just so happens that these two dens will meet in the same place, at the same time, and will probably be working on the same activity in their own part of the room. And the two dens will get together as a big group on occasion for various activities (snow tubing with 13 works just as well as with 6 or 7).

 

So, I appreciate any additional advice from direct contact leaders who have had success with this type of strategy.

[Scoutfish]

I was an ADL in a Bear den of 24 boys. Way too many. I as well as the other ADL's wanted to split into "at least" 2 dens, if not 3 dens.

 

We had to routinely split into 3 groops just to acomplish anything. Advancement and awards were always lacking and paperwork was either behind or just not existant.

 

 

I fibnally brought this up in a leaders meeting and for some reason, the DL and his wife took this as personal insults from the whole pack. Not sure why.

 

 

So from that perspective, I understand neding to split your dens.

But I also have some "real world" understanding too. What I mean by that is - while BSA guideline can easily tell you to recruit more DL's and ADL's and lead you to believe that parents and volunteers are just lined up waiting to be asked...we know better!

 

Sometimes you have to use and deal with what you got. Some people will end up wearing 2 or 3 hats. They don't want to, but know that if they don't it WONT get done.

In your case, I am assuming that the help isn't there.

 

Ideally, you should have 2 seperate dens.

 

But in the real world, you do what you have to do with what you have.

 

And if it works out doing the patrol ting...then that's great!

 

Just remember ( as you said) they are 2 patrols within 1 den and are always a den, not a patrol.

[Scoutfish]

As a side topic of this post:

 

One of the main purposes of Cub Scouts is to prepare boys for Boy Scouts , right?

 

Well, as CubMaster, I do on occasion tell some of the younger cubs( Tigers and Wolves and Bears) that if they stick it out and hang in there until Boy Scouts, then they , instead of their parents, will basically run the show.

 

I tell the Cubs that as Boy Scouts, they decide when and where to go camping, what to buy to eat, what and when to cook, etc...

 

The way I see it, having a den split into 2 patrols ( while remembering - "But not really" ) is a very small step into letting those boys get a feel for being "bigger" .

 

We let Webelos camp on the den level and well..teach them Boy Scout stuff, not really Cub Scout stuff. They have activity Pins and not beads, They just earn more activity pins and not electives.

 

So Tigers is a catagory of Cubs in itself, Then Wolves and Bears are lumped togethjer, then you have Webelos.

Each one is supposed to be a step higher in the process of grooming future boy scouts.

 

Yeah, grooming isn't really the right word, but I can't think of the right one.

 

Having a "but not really" patro; within a den is a non issue to me as long as it is just a "but not really" patrol and it is within the den.

[Eagledad]

>>I'm wondering if others out there have done this and, if so, I'm looking for helpful suggestions as to how to make this work best.

[Nike]

Our pack has a monster sized Tiger Den. The DL loves it since she's an elementary ed teacher. 15 Tiger teams in spot doesn't phase her. And the time works for everyone.

 

However, she is splitting the den into activity groups for each meeting and ferreting out the parents she can depend on to be her de facto ADLs. Next year, we will split that den and hopefully the new parents will realize they can do it as a DL/ADL.

 

Not according to the book, but we're making it work this year.

[83Eagle]

Eagledad, I really like your ideas when it comes to planning. Since we have very active parents in the den I think that would work well. Could be a hybrid parents/scout/family planning. Definitely something to think about because a lot of our parents are at the meetings anyway.

 

(Oh, the last time I brought this up I was admonished here that that one of the purposes of Cub Scouting is to "wean" the boys from parents to transition into Boy Scouts, so let me say that I understand this, and I consider parental involvement a blessing!)

 

I'd like to stress that the DL and ADL get along very well, as do the boys. This is a matter of logistics, and to provide a quality program while keeping the great group dynamics that we have built over the past three years.

[Eagledad]

>>(Oh, the last time I brought this up I was admonished here that that one of the purposes of Cub Scouting is to "wean" the boys from parents to transition into Boy Scouts

[SeattlePioneer]

I like Eagledad's approach as well.

 

 

One approach I'd like to see is having two or more dens with a common program run by different Den Leadersor Assistant Den Leaders.

 

You COULD have one Den Leader who devised the program, and several Assistant Den Leaders who executed that common plan among different groups of boys. That's kind of what Eagledad seems to do.

 

More parents are probably willing and able to carry out a well crafted program than coming up with such a program.

 

Also, I'd form dens with different names and flags. Not just a Wolf den, but the Gray Wolves, the Timber Wolves or whatever, each with it's own den cheer.

[ScoutNut]

There is no reason to reinvent the wheel. The BSA already has common programs for each den level.

 

It is called the New Cub Scout Delivery Method. The Cub Scout Den and Pack Meeting Resource Guide has plans for very den, and Pack, meeting, for the entire year.

 

 

[83Eagle]

Eagledad, I'm really inspired by the level of responsibility your Webelos have taken on.

 

Honestly, sometimes our current 2nd year Webelos are worse behaved and less responsible than the Tiger den. This is really a result of a combination of the W2 nanny-style den leadership along with what had traditionally been a top-down controlled Pack program. I have already changed the latter but, as to the former...well, they're crossing over in two months so it's time to begin setting expectations with the W1 Den (and Bears, etc.)

 

I have always found that boys will live up or down to your expectations of them and giving them more responsibility is a good thing.

 

This is also an objective of the virtual Den split we are going to do, in putting the boys gradually more in charge of the program.