Leader refuses to use immediate recognition beeds

[clemlaw]

They obviously already approached him. If they hadn't approached him, he couldn't have refused.

 

Since he is refusing, all they can do is remove him or threaten to remove him.

 

If I'm wrong, what else can they do?

[Scoutfish]

The beads, while at the front line of thoughts, are not really the issue the way I see it.

 

Sure, the Original Post was about the beads. But the real meat of it is the fact that the den leader REFUSES to hand them out.

 

The den leader decided they were not important or necessary.

 

So the question is ;

 

1) What else does he think is not important and

2) What else will he REFUSE to do when asked to do in regards to following the program - wether suggested or required?

 

Suppose he doesn't restrict any smoking or even the occasional nip of the bottle by adults AT den meetings because...well , let's face it, alot of parents smoke and drink and their kids have seen it before. They are not traumatized by it, so why not the occasional vice at a den meeting.

 

Maybe he decides that all the boys automatically have the right to use pocket knives just for the fact they are Cub Scouts. Scouts and knives just go hand in hand..so no big deal right? Whittling Chip - smittling ship! They are boy scouts so they get knives!

 

Yeah, that will go over real well as soon as the first boy cuts his own finger off or worse.

 

Maybe the DL lets loose with the occasional profanity or doesn't interject when mom or dad do. Everybody does it, kids hear it at school...so what's the big deal right?

 

Look at it this way: If you steal a $0.25 piece of gum...it's not really stealing is it? It was only a piece of gum right?

 

 

WRONG!!!!! Stealing is stealing! You purposely took something that was not yours. Price does not lessen the act.

 

The DL agreed to follow the program and he even signed a piece of peper saying so when he turned in his application to BSA.

 

The duties of a Den Leader are outlined and his relationship to the pack, the CO, and to the CM and CC are clearly and cleanly stated.

 

If the pack uses and impliments the beads as part of their program, then the DL is obligated to do the same.

 

If he refuses, what other part of the program ( wether BSA's or the Pack's) is he not going along with.

 

I'd hold a leadership meeting to discuss this very thing. Give the DL the oppertunity to change direction and follow the plan or find another leader to take his place.

 

Let him get away with it and you give hin license to be rogue whenever it suits him.

 

I know it sounds harsh, because it's only progress beads right?

 

But it's beads TODAY. What's it gonna be next week, next month, next year or at a campout?

 

That is what the issue is!(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

[Scoutfish]

It really sucks too! This den leader might be the greatest den leader in every other way aside from the beads, but you have to look at the entire package.

 

Suppose you own a restaurant. A waitress might be the most friendly, the most liked and respected by all the customers who always sit in her section. But what if she's pocketing $5 or $10 a night that is supposed to go in the register.

Might only be $5 or $10 right now, but sooner or later, it adds up!

 

Another thing that concerns me is this: His dettachment from what the boys like and enjoy. He doesn't care about the beads. I get that. BUT that doesn't mean the boys don't. He can't see the value IN THE BOY'S EYES, and that is a very big issue.

 

There are things in scouting that I think are hokey and just dumb. But I realize that I am not the target for that hokey and dumb stuff. I am 39 years old and the program is geared towards 6 to 10 year olds.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

[CHLees3rd]

Clem,

 

The original post never mentioned anyone speaking to the Den Leader. All that was noted was that the Den Leader does not use the totem and beads. This information could have been shared as a comment at meeting or just offhandedly in a conversation.

 

OldSchool - was the Den Leader counseled by the pack leadership about the how to present the Cub Scout program?

 

Chazz Lees

[Scoutfish]

 

 

I get the impression , from the part that says "that refuses to use" and "Stating that they alredy recieve enough awards" that somebody already at one point talked to or asked the den leader about it.

 

"refuses to use" say he is REFUSING to use them. Not that he doesn't want to or would rather not use them...he REFUSES.

 

 

And I didn't catch it earlier, but I didn't mean to say being ashamed is the same as not wanting to. Not entirely sure where my thoughts were on that particular wording of it.

[CHLees3rd]

Until OldSchool Scout replies about the how the Den Leader refused, we do not know if someone from the pack leadership told him that the totem and beads needed to be use and he defiantly said, "I refuse to use them" as opposed to a group a Den Leaders talking about their pet peeves as leaders with one says she hates snack time and he commenting, "the totems are a waste of time and I just refuse to deal with them." "I refuse to use them" in the first part shows disobedience while the second part could been a bragging. Disobedience to the pack leadership would be grounds for the pack to say "Thank you but your services are no longer needed" while the latter would be the time to counsel the Den Leader and impression upon him why the totem and beads are important parts of the Cub Scout program.

 

Chazz Lees

[clemlaw]

The more I think about this, there is only one logical conclusion. The entire Pack needs to be disbanded!

 

As everyone has dutifully quoted, the rules demand that the beads be awarded. But the rules do not state that the Den Leader must be the person to hand them out. So we have this Den Leader who isn't doing the job, but apparently, nobody else in the Pack is stepping up to the plate to help out and do this job.

 

They're apparently aware of this refusal, yet they do nothing about it! I bet they also allow smoking, drinking, swearing, and stealing at the Pack meetings.

 

Personally, I think that would be rather drastic. But that's the logical conclusion. Apparently, _nobody_ is handing out the beads. We have a volunteer den leader who is, as far as we know, doing his job completely, with the exception of the beads. Apparently, nobody else is willing to take on that part of the job, either. Why should his head be the only one to roll?

[ScoutNut]

Old School - As you can see there are various thoughts on the issue of the importance of immediate recognition beads.

 

You asked what can be done.

 

As you are a den leader for a den other than the one in question, the answer is - not a lot.

 

You can bring it up at a Pack Leaders meeting, and suggest that the Pack incorporate the cost into the budget starting next year, and award the beads at Pack meetings. However, if the CM, the CC, and the other Pack leaders, do not get on board, you can not force them to do anything.

 

Your best bet is to stop worrying about how other dens are run (that is the CM's job), and make sure that your Wolf den is getting a great program.

 

On a side note, based on your posts, you seem to have a lot of issues with your Pack. You might want to spend some time and check out other Packs in your area. You might find one that has a Scouting vision that is closer to your own, and is a better fit for you and your family.

[Basementdweller]

Stealing???????? You have got to be kidding me

 

Guys this is just a silly plastic totem with beads hanging from them. Switch to decaff or somethin.....

 

We don't know the entire story....maybe the pack can't afford them.....maybe there is not a scout shop close by.....maybe....maybe...maybe.

 

Of all the planning and effort that goes into a den meeting that stupid little piece of plastic is irrelevant, I am amazed that this discussion has gone on this long.ne

 

As a complaining parent I have one thing to say to you......STEP UP or SHUT UP. Think you can do a better job......Then prove it. I have used that approach a number of times and only once did the parent step up........And they did not do any better than the person they replaced.

 

 

BTW we don't use those stupid white plastic totems.......We make our own out of wood biscuits, they look 100 x cooler and are a fantastic keep sake.

 

[Lisabob]

Tempests in tea pots, like this one, result in the loss of otherwise-good volunteers and the reluctance of others to become volunteers. Folks who just wanted to help out a couple hours a week with a worthwhile kids program end up being accused of all sorts of calumny. Who needs the grief?!

[BSA24]

Lisabob - well said.

 

Youth are not in danger from not receiving beads. The Scouting program will not fall apart without the beads.

 

Do you really want to die on that hill? Because if you nag me about the beads twice, I might just stand up, hand you the den leader patch, and walk out the door.

 

The youth are in danger from not having leaders. The scouting program will fall apart without the leaders.

 

Just go to the scout shop and buy your own beads, parents, and give them out yourself to your kid at home. Even better, go to tandy leather company, buy a leather totem, and teach your child to make their own and dye it. It's not an eagle scout award. Anyone can buy the beads.

 

"Fun with a purpose." NOT "Arguing about the rules and regulations with some fun."

[Scoutfish]

Like I said before, it's not about the beads so much as a Leader refusing to use them. If the pack didn't use them,then it wouldn't be brought up about the leader refusing. It would just be a post about a pack not using them.

 

But again, it's not about the beads . It's about a leader who doesn't appear to be follwing the same program as the rest of the pack,

 

First thing I said was have a chat and allow the DL to explain and follow the program.

 

So after that though, where does it stop? Maybe the DL will not award a rank badge to a scout who lost his necker?

Maybe he adds to the requirements?

Maybe he becomes an ASM or SM who doesn't believe in BOR or SM conferences. Maybe he figures he sees the scout every week anyways...so why have a special meeting with the scout that you already work with?

 

Again, not the beads themselves, but the attutude or unwillingness to follow the program.

 

 

 

 

[Basementdweller]

Welll, were just gonna need to differ in opinion.

 

 

We have many packs........

Don't use the Sports and Academic program

Don't wear scout hats

Don't wear neckerchiefs

Don't do Career arrows

Don't have Denners

Don't have Den Chiefs

Don't Camp

Don't go to Day Camp

Don't go to Resident Camp

Don't participate in District events

Don't participate in Council events

Don't do community service

Don't do conservation projects

Don't do a cross over ceremony

Don't hold the pinewood derby

Don't hold the rain gutter regatta

Ignore the Guide to safe scouting

ON AND ON

 

Ya know their program runs year after year.........

 

It is their program......... I am guessing the original poster is a complaining parent. Maybe the complainer should volunteer as the assistant den leader and manage it. a scouter can only do so much, he cannot do the beads and that is ok. That is my point,

 

I don't believe that it will cause a cascade that will end the world or the Pack.

 

In a well run program, the boys get so many patches and bobbles another bead. Last month our boys received patches for a hike, a cub district event and a camp out. I think that is enough.(This message has been edited by Basementdweller)

[Scoutfish]

Different opinions are great!

Now, I'm not saying that tis DL IS going to cause the pack to shut down. I'm just saying that the reasoning behind why he refuses to do something is what I am concerned about. If he thinks beads are bunk, what does he think about patches fopr hikes, campouts, Council camps, or events.

 

Might even be this guy doesn't think racing cars has any practical value either.

 

Again, not saying that I know he thinks this, I'm just saying that keeping up with beads is a non issue because he shopuld be keeping up with all that anyways as part of the boys earning rank patches. The info is the same. The achievements are the same. Beads are basd on acheivements, not extra activities.

 

Tell advancement chair ( or whoever handles that stuff) where each scout is. That info should be already kept up with and written down ( or on a computer) anyways.

 

And sure, the program runs year after year, but this is a Tiger DL. He's new this year. It all starts somewhere.

 

And it is a testament when a parent ( if this is the case) understands the ideas behind a program better than the DL.

 

As far as a parent volunteering and signing up....I completely agree! If you have ideas and the energy to do it, and think you can do better....go for it!

 

That's where I came in. But then again, I think my dog could have done better than a DL /ADL husband/wife combo who REFUSED to believe that 24 boys in 1 den was too much. Some boys were waiting a LONG time on patches while at the same time, my son earned his Bear rank 3 times. THREE TIMES!

 

Explain that one.

[ScoutNut]

>>"but this is a Tiger DL. He's new this year. It all starts somewhere."