Being leftout

[campingchair]

I'm a CC for a pack and I'm having some issues with two if the den leaders in our pack. Last month, two dens (wolf and bear) met for a trip. It was a great day and the kids had fun. My issue though was that the Weblos were not included. I felt that the den leaders should have come to our monthly leader meeting and let the other den leader know about this event. A month later, the two dens met again for a night of caroling. Again, the weblos were not included. This does'nt seem like a big deal, but the reason I'm concerned is that the bear den leader has a negative view of the weblos leader. I don't know what happened between the two leaders, but personal reasons should not interfere with the pack activities. Those boys in the weblos den missed out on a great day of fun. Do I have a valid point or am I over-reacting? Any suggestions.

[shortridge]

Rethink your concerns. Don't put yourself into the position of saying to the Wolf and Bear DLs: "You have to invite everyone or you can't have any fun!" That's just plain silly.

 

You describe the events first as den activities, then as pack activities. Well, which were they? I think you may have lost sight of two very important things: (1) A den doing cool program doesn't hurt the rest of the pack; and (2) There's nothing preventing the Webelos DL from putting on the exact same program or going to the exact same event.

 

The two DLs should be commended for doing such a good job! Learn from them and try to expand that to your other dens.

[ScoutNut]

You are over reacting.

 

Every activity does not have to be a Pack activity. It is great that the Wolf and Bear dens are having fun doing some activities together.

 

Perhaps you can suggest some outings to the Webelos den leaders that the Webelos might enjoy.

 

It also sounds like maybe the Pack needs to be working on putting together some Pack-wide activities. At your next Pack Leaders Meeting, get suggestions from everyone for Pack outings, recruit an Pack Activity Chair, and go for it. One good idea is to get a few of the Pack adults to take BALOO training. Then have them plan a Pack campout.

[Stosh]

campingchair: First of all: Welcome to the forums!

 

I can understand your concerns because as a SM we deal with the same group dynamics with patrols.

 

If you would review the Den Chief training (it's on-line) you will notice that the program draws a natural line between the Den Chief expectations for Wolf/Bear and that for Webelos.

 

The Wolf/Bear guys might get a kick out of caroling, etc. and that's exactly what they want. However, maybe the Webelos might want to do something more "grown up" like helping collect food for the local food pantry, decorating at a nursing home or something with a bit more challenge to it.

 

I'm thinking you may be a bit over concerned as well. As a matter of fact, you could be expressing your concerns that the Pack always does activities oriented for the Wolf/Bear guys and the Webelos want to be doing something else and can't!

 

I think it's great that the Wolf/Bear DL's are digging in and getting some nice stuff organized for their boys, but the WDL needs to be doing things for his boys as well. And of course there is nothing wrong with the Webelos boys hosting an activity and inviting the Wolf/Bear guys even though the invitation is not reciprocated.

 

As CC for the Pack, I would suggest sitting down with the CM and WDL to work out a plan of suggestions for the WDL's to consider that sound more like suggestions than demands. This way you can expand on what you have going and offer even more opportunities for the boys rather than begrudging someone being left out.

 

I'm thinking that if the WDL keeps inviting the W/B dens to nice activities and they never reciprocate, it kinda looks bad, but so be it.

 

However, in the mean time, the WDL's step up their game plan and the Webelos boys end up having so much fun they don't sit around worrying about getting left out of a Wolf/Bear den activity.

 

It's kinda like what do you do with a troop where all the young Tenderfoot/Second/First Class guys want to go to summer camp and the Star/Life/Eagle guys want to go to Philmont. In my book, it's not an all or nothing proposition, it's a "do-it-all" challenge.

 

Your mileage may vary,

 

Stosh

[The Blancmange]

Are you in the same pack as the new member who started this thread?:

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=297563

If so, the two of you should sit down and talk. Regardless, I think if two den leaders want to plan a joint activity, that is bewtween the two of them. The job of planning pack activities falls to the Cubmaster and pack committee. Any pack where something like this becomes an issue simply needs better commmunication.

[Twocubdad]

You're not over reacting. Showing up at a committee meeting demanding your boys being included would be over reacting. Searching the web, asking a question on an anonymous web site is not over reacting.

 

Yes there are much more program similarities between Wolf and Bear than there is with Webelos, but I think this is just tacky. Common courtesy would suggest the folks putting this together at least invite the other dens which are perfectly free to decline the invitation. I would also see it as a courtesy (and in some cases a requirement) for DLs to let the pack leadership know what they're up to.

 

My sense of both this and Allears' pack in the other thread is they have weak pack leadership. Just a hunch. Why is the demand for pack activities being unmet? Or maybe the question is why the den leaders feel the need to piggyback activities. Are they overwhelmed? Unsupported?

 

The WhiteHair is correct, more communications is needed. Unlike troop committees, which are comprised of committee members, pack committees are comprised of "leaders". It's a subtle difference but significant. Are all these folks coming together for a leaders' meeting once a month? If the pack leaders are working together to support the whole pack none of this is a problems. If the DLs are off doing their own thing by themselves, people can feel left out and/or develop a them vs. us attitude.

 

 

[drmbear]

I'm a Cubmaster, and I'm also a Bear Den Leader. Just because a den leader wants to plan an activity for the den, whether their own or working with another den, doesn't mean they want to go through all the effort to plan an activity for the whole pack. I know as Cubmaster I would never expect them to. It sounds to me the Pack leadership, CM and the Pack Committee, isn't really working together to plan and lead great pack activities that everyone is invited to. Heck, with boys this age, there are lots of activities that could be unmanageble with a pack sized group when the den leader is setting it up. A den leader may see something come along in the next week or so that is easy for him to coordinate with his own parents or maybe another den, but trying to throw in the whole pack is like trying to turn the Titanic.

 

Additionally, this program is set up as Tiger Cubs, Cub Scouts(Wolves & Bears), and Webelos (4th & 5th graders). The Wolves & Bears are going through similar experiences, and no matter how much fun it may be for anyone else, there may be elements that are directly related to earning Wolf and Bear achievements or electives that are different than what anyone else may want to be working on. Don't your Webelos Dens, Web 1 and Web 2, plan campouts and activities that the Wolves and Bears really can't participate in, or even just shouldn't participate in, even if they may think it fun?

 

Your den leaders should be applauded for planning activities and making Cub Scouts a fun thing to do for their boys. I'd say they are great den leaders for doing that. Their responsibility is to their dens (in the big scheme of things), not to the pack as a whole. It is up to the Cubmaster and Committee to plan and coordinate activities that make Cub Scouts fun for all the boys in the pack. If they are not doing that, they need to get on the ball or you need to find someone else that can.

[campingchair]

I appreciate all the feedback. I am new to the position of CC and am learning as I go. But like I wrote before, my concern was that the Bear leader has a bad history with the weblos leader and I hope that this is not the reason for any exclusions. We have meetings once a month for all the leaders to get together and discuss pack business and upcoming events. The communications channel is always open. Unfortunately, there was no communication this time.

[Eagle92]

CC,

#1 WELCOME TO THE FORUMS!!!!!!!!!

 

#2 As others have stated, Wolves and Bears WILL be doing different things than Tigers and Webelos. that's how things are set up.

 

#3 Your WDLs should be organizing their own activities, especially outdoor ones like hikes, Webelos Den camping, visitng troops, etc. that the Wolves and Bears cannot do.

 

Good luck

[moosetracker]

The history may be of slight concern when the Bear den migrates to Webelos, if the other person will then be the Webelos II den leader, but really if the WebI still don't want to organize with the WebII.. That is fine.. They just stand alone and the WebII will migrate to troop in half a year anyway..

 

You just can't force friendships by forcing people to work together. If they can't work together respect the issue. It would be different if it was DL & ADL and the whole den was being torn apart by the battle. These two dens really can do fine on their own. So find ways the pack runs smoothly by allowing the seperation.. As long as each DL is working with his den well, they are doing their job. You should be happy and let sleeping dogs lie.

 

I agree, if I were the DL doing a group thing with another den would seem fun and less work on me.. But doing something as a DL and including the whole den would be the exact opposite, it would have me frazzled trying to figure out if I have enough materials, communicated to everyone, have enough activities..

 

By the way if you plan an event that included the Wolf / Bear & Webelos.. Why would you then not be concerned about the exclusion of the Tigers? They would be the only ones left out and are kind of the newbies trying to find their place in the world.. A grouping a wolf & Bear wouldn't concern me.. A grouping excluding only the tigers would that is a pack event that is excluding specifically only one group. The group you should be bending over backward to involve so they learn the ropes.

[Lisabob]

Keep in mind that all of your leaders are volunteers. If a couple of them can't stand the sight of each other, but they both do their jobs well on their own, then consider that a victory and move on. You can't force these people to like each other and if you try to make them work together and they really don't want to, then they'll just quit on you.

 

It isn't the Bear/Wolf den leaders' jobs to make sure the Webelos are having fun. Don't make it be their job. (It also isn't your job as CC)

 

There's also a natural division between 2nd/3rd graders on one hand, and 4th/5th graders on the other hand. How many 5th graders are really going to want to attend a bunch of activities aimed at 2nd graders?

 

I bet that there are things the older boys are doing that would actually be a lot of fun for the younger fellows, too. Are you also insisting that the Webelos den leaders reciprocate and open up their den activities to all the younger fellows?

 

Bottom line: let the den leaders have their distinct programs and don't try to force them to coordinate den activities if they aren't interested. If there are a couple of things that you think really ought to be full pack activities, then consider that when your leadership does the planning for next year's pack calendar. At least that way, the people who agree to plan the activities know what they are signing up for.

 

 

 

 

[ScoutNut]

Why are you so hung up on the fact that the Bear leader does not like the Webelos leader?

 

They are in separate dens, with separate programs. They should both be doing their own things, and providing their own dens a good BSA Cub program. That is their main job. If they manage to work/interact fine together during Pack-wide activities, then I do not see a problem.

 

The Bear den leaders seem to be providing a good program for the Bear den. As do the Wolf den leaders for the Wolf den.

 

How is the program in the Webelos dens? There are a lot of activities that the Webelos dens can do that the Wolf and Bear dens can not. You do not seem to be concerned that the Webelos den is not inviting the entire Pack along on their fun Webelos den activities. Or, is that the problem? Are the Webelos dens not doing any fun den activities of their own?