BB Gun Belt Loop Requirements

[BluejacketScouter]

My son and I attended (Council-sponsored) CS day camp and Wolf-Bear weekend over the summer. While there, he participated in both Archery and time on the BB-gun range.

 

About a month after those events, the council posted a notification of sport awards the boys had earned by attending the camps. I'm all right with the archery - I reviewed the electives in my son's Wolf book, and actually had the archery instructor sign off as Akela for that elective. I'm iffy on the BB-gun. It was somewhat instructed as far as range safety, but not much else. But since BB is a council-only activity and it's not listed in the academics and sports guide, I can't find an actual list of requirements to earn the belt slide.

 

Where can I find those requirements, just to satisfy myself that he has completed the elective to an appropriate age level?

 

Thanks...

[momof2cubs]

Here's where they are ALL listed:

 

http://65.38.184.167/advance/cubscout/a-sindex.asp

 

For future reference, I find that archery and BB gun are usually very well completed. Since these two can only be done in certain conditions, they range certified leaders tend to make darn sure they are actually completed.

[Eagle92]

Navy,

Trust me, day camp shooting sports folks make darn sure that at a minimum the belt loops are completed. Most also try to get the pins doen as well.

[BluejacketScouter]

This isn't too difficult for me to make a decision on, but it is a little frustrating. Requirement two was not reviewed at any level:

 

2.Demonstrate to your leader or adult partner good BB gun shooting techniques, including eye dominance, shooting shoulder, breathing, sight alignment, trigger squeeze, follow through.

 

I guess it was more of an "open shoot" than anything else. Keep rifle pointed downrange, don't fire until I say so, wait until everyone is done to retrieve your targets.

 

The other boys can have their beltloops, but my son is denied. We'll maybe try to catch requirement 2 next year, after some discussion with a sympathetic instructor.

 

 

 

[momof2cubs]

I think you are being a little harsh. In Cub Scouts, it's "do your best". If your son shot and tried, I think he deserves it. Just my opinion.

[shortridge]

The site momof2cubs provided also includes the prominent disclaimer: "The BB-Gun Shooting belt loop and pin can only be awarded by a BSA range-trained shooting-sports director

at a BSA approved range." But you're kind of in a Catch-22 situation since the SSD clearly thinks that the Cubs completed the requirements.

 

If I were in your shoes, I'd ask your son to explain and demonstrate those items to you, sign off as Akela, then next year - if he's interested - work on the shooting sports award certificates, focusing on accuracy and marksmanship. I'd also call up the council shooting sports committee director or camp program director with a gentle nudge to make sure that all the Cubs are completing all the requirements as written.

 

At the Cub camps I've staffed, we offered more of an open-shoot program like BluejacketScouter described. There was neither the staffing nor the time for each Cub to demonstrate those items individually as part of the program, though the range officer did a safety and how-to demonstration and offered advice as needed. But if someone had asked, I'm sure the SS staff would have gladly hung around an extra 10 minutes to sign off.

 

It's interesting to note that the requirements have been rewritten since 2002.

 

For the belt loop, they used to be:

1. Complete the camp basic BB gun marksmanship safety course.

2. Fire 15 shots at a 4-inch or 5-inch target. No particular score is required. Participant must be able to adjust the BB gun sight.

 

The old pin requirements involved completing the camp basic BB gun marksmanship safety course, firing three groups of shots (three shots per group) that can be covered by a quarter, and then shooting from various positions with set degrees of accuracy.

[Scoutfish]

"Demonstrate to your leader or adult partner good BB gun shooting techniques, including eye dominance, shooting shoulder, breathing, sight alignment, trigger squeeze, follow through"

 

Do let's break it down here:

 

1) "Demonstrate to your leader or adult partner..."

 

In this case, it most likely means the BB range instructor, because this activity is restricted to ccouncil or distric camps.

 

2) "..good BB gun shooting techniques ..."

 

Did he take any amount of time to site the target, or did he just aim in the general direction and fire without looking through the sites?

 

Being that he is a Wolf, and not an older Boy Scout or even an adult - If he didn't purposely point the gun directly at your face while loading, talking or pretending to be John Wayne.. Then for his age, he actually is demonstrating based on his maturity level.

 

3)"...including eye dominance..." Did he keep both eyes open? Did he shut one while looking with the other?Is he left eye dominant while right hand dominant?

 

4)"....shooting shoulder..."

 

Did he bring the butt of the stock up against his shoulder or did he tuck it under his arm/ hold it so it free floated?

And if he did...did anybodt bother to show him the correct methood or did they just let him keep doing it wrong?

 

5) "..breathing..." Yeah, at this age, this is a toug one. Most people do not hear about this unless they are watching the History Channel talking about snipers.

 

6)".... sight alignment..." Dids he use the sight right? Kinda hard to tell. There is no way for you to see down the sight correctly and for him to do it at the same time. Basically, you have no way of knowing.

 

7)"....trigger squeeze..." All I can say is that- that is mostly a joke. The BB guns used by our council camp are Red Rider BB guns. They are spring air. Mostly spring. The triggers are narrow,they are very stiff and hard to pull.

 

Could be the design of the gun, could be lack of prpoer maint, or just wear and tear. Point is, the kids exert ALOT of force and pressure to try to pull..yes I said pull, not squeeze the trigger. The kids are lucky they can jerk or snatch the trigger, much less perform a nice even squeeze.

Personally, I'd completely ignore this one.

 

8) ".....follow through...." This one may just be worded in a way that has me lost.

 

Do they mean he doesn't turn around , oblivious that he's still holding the gun and ends up pointing it at you, the guy beside you or behind you? Does he shoot, then drop the gun and run to his target oblivious of any other shooters on the range? Does he set the safety before reloading it or setting it down when done?

 

 

Nowlastly: There are two ways to look at beltloops. As another opertunity to test your child or as they were intended, recognition for your son taking the time to participate in another activity.

 

Belt loops are not a certification, nor are they a license. They are just a "participated in" recognition.

 

Deny that belt loop and you are doing a greater disservive that you think there would be by him getting it. You will send a message of: You wasted your time and failed!"(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

[ScoutNut]

Sorry, but while your council BB gun course might be a vapid, shoot em up any old way course, I know that many council's are not.

 

My council in particular, makes sure to coach the boys on proper shooting techniques. We make sure that each section is not to large to enable individual instruction as needed.

 

With enough shooting stations, there is plenty enough time in a 45 minute class for the boys to prove they have the techniques down. Especially if they end up hitting a bulls-eye.

 

If the range officer stated your son completed the Belt Loop for BB's, or Archery, you do not have the authority to overturn it.

[BluejacketScouter]

Thanks to everyone who took the time to read and post.

 

We could debate many points, but the fact remains: the boys were not instructed to the second requirement. I was present at each session, 50 minutes each day for 5 days, and it was open shoot each time.

 

This was why I asked the question about the requirements. I didn't have any concern about accuracy, as long as he hit the paper, it was fine with both of us (and he did fairly well at that).

 

I grew up in a shooting family and keep firearms secured at home. I'm comfortable with introducing my son to the requirements, and then having him demonstrate what he's learned to an instructor the next time we're at camp, now that I know what age-appropriate requirements are.

 

For the record, my son is Autistic with Asperger's, and there are many times when "do your best" have been just that. But as a father, "do your best" will simply not cut it when it comes to handling firearms, ever-ever. Even semi-harmful ones.

 

 

[Eagle92]

Here's a thought, why don't you coach him privately so that when the opportunity arises again, he knows what he is doing?

 

Another idea is to try and help recruit more staff, especially for shooting sports. Don't know if your den leaders/parents at camp are like mine, but sometimes you got to encourage them to help coach the shooters.

 

One thing I like from my JROTC days was that when we went to the range, everyone was paired up: one shooting, one coaching. I like it when an adult helps out on a range.

 

[BartHumphries]

I agree with Scoutfish. As long as people were putting the gun up to their shoulder, trying to hit whatever they're shooting at, etc., they're going to hit all those points. I have a really hard time believing that "open shooting" means "no qualified adult supervision". As long as the boys aren't horsing around with the guns (a really big no-no), it's going to be pretty hard for them to not hit the requirements. While you were there, was there horseplay (hitting someone while that person is holding a gun, pointing a gun at another person, etc.)?

[Pack212Scouter]

He's a Cub Scout, not a Marine Sniper, and he is not being trained as one. If he shot in a free shoot under qualified adult supervision for 50 minutes a day, he blew the requirements out of the water, especially if he hit the target on a regular basis. Does it mean that he is ready to pick up your 30-06 and shoot a buck, no. What it means is exactly what it says "Demonstrate...good BB gun shooting techniques..."

[clemlaw]

I'm not sure I understand the problem.

 

He's already had the requirements signed off. If you don't believe that he has fully met those requirements, there is nothing stopping you from giving him whatever additional training you think is appropriate.

 

After you do so, you're not allowed to sign off those requirements. But you don't have to, because they're already signed off.

 

If you wish, you can go over these requirements prior to the Pack meeting where he gets the award. That way, it is earned to your satisfaction, it's signed off to the Council and Pack's satisfaction, and your son gets the belt loop.

[Scoutfish]

"Demonstrate to your leader or adult partner good BB gun shooting techniques, including eye dominance, shooting shoulder, breathing, sight alignment, trigger squeeze, follow through."

 

Well, having time to think about it, I can see where this could be taken differently by different people.

 

Trust me, the range instructor is watching all the boys the entire time he is shooting. Matter of fact, did you notice that the rangemaster or his assistant ( if he had one) also would telltose who were waiting their turn to keep the noise down, no horseplay or running around?

 

Demonstrating does not specifically mean that each scout has a one on one session with the instructor.

 

It also means that the scout does what he is supposed to do, and the instructor or rangemaster happens to observe him while he is doing it.

 

I mean, while this was all going on, did you notice at any time at all, if the instructor ever told the ALL boys to stop because one scout may have been doing something wrong or appeared to be in the process of "fixing to" do something less than safe.

 

Just saying, could you imagine the line, the delays and the mood around the BB gun range if each scout had to stand in line and individually demonstrate to the instructor what he was supposed to be doing?

 

Too many scouts would NEVER get the chance to shoot.