Bear badge in <2months oh my!

[shortridge]

Reason No. 127 why self-chartered units are a Bad Idea.

 

Under your arrangement, the parents - all of them - are the ultimate arbiter and authority in the pack. As the COR, you represent the parents. If the DL is going against the wishes of the other parents, you can demand she stop.

 

But how far do you want to take that? Do you really want every parent to be able to put every decision of every DL up to a vote before the committee of parents?

[ScoutNut]

First of all, she can NOT insist that the Cubmaster stay out of her den meetings, and she can NOT restrict how the Pack communicates to it's members.

 

You should have contact info for the entire Pack. Send ALL Pack families the same information. Send it by both snail (make sure return addy states Pack #1234, not mr&mrs so&so), and e-mail. That way you have a better chance of getting it to your families. Send newsletters, calendars, and fliers. If this den leader complains, just tell her so sorry, new change of policy, nothing can be done.

 

Managing the program of the Pack, guiding den leaders, and making sure that the leaders, and the program, positively reflect the objectives of the BSA IS the JOB of the Cubmaster.

 

Fundraisers - Your Pack could institute a policy that families MUST help the Pack go. It can be by participating in fundraising, or by paying Pack dues. But have it REQUIRED to meet a specific amount one way or the other. Announce this at Pack meetings, and send out an announcement flier to every family. If necessary, put together another fundraiser (don't forget to get council approval), so that families will have a chance to make their fundraising goal for the year.

[5yearscouter]

Scoutridge,

It's not as bad as all that to self charter.

 

When the pack was starting out we had a parent meeting and decided a few things off the bat regarding registration fees, parents required involvement and meeting locations and chose our leadership. I was part of that key group 5 years ago, but was in a different postion at the beginning.

 

After that organizational meeting, committee votes for a few things, but most decisions come from committee chair, COR and cubmaster coming to an agreement on how they want the pack to go. If there is a big issue, they may be taken care of in a twice yearly parent meeting where all parents have a say and can bring new ideas/policies and I guess they could kick out someone with voting, but that has never happened.

 

Our chartered organization (the parents) have about as much active interest in making decisions about how our pack runs as any other chartered organization. They are hands off although in reality the parents could force big changes if they so wished.

 

I'm training a replacement CC who will remain in that job hopefully for 3 years. I will remain COR for another year to be a guide and then in a parent meeting they will vote to replace me. Cubmaster is on his 2nd year but plans to stay in a pack position until his youngest gets thru cubs in about 7 years, and asst cubmaster is in the same long term committment.

 

Other members of the committee are brought on board as they come and go in scouting to provide new ideas and excitement, but the key 3 in this instance are long timers to provide a bit more stability that a self chartering situation may not usually have.

[5yearscouter]

We come from a predominantly poor area. The school we meet at has 85% of the students qualify for free or reduced lunches. Of the other 11 schools that we recruit from, there is a high of 95% of the students qualifying for free or reduced lunches at a few schools, with 1 more afluent school thrown in for good measure. We can never get any scoutreach $ and our council campership apps were not approved for summer camp last year. Of course our FOS donations are usually low within the pack due to our financial situation.

 

We don't want to force participation in fundraisers or require parents to do a buy in for a certain dollar amount if we can help it. If a scout comes from a poor neighborhood, going door to door to sell popcorn doesn't work well. So we set up in front of a local grocery store (by the more affluent school we recruit from) and the boys there all sold a boatload of popcorn. they sold out of all the $10 popcorn that we ordered.

 

It would have been a no-brainer to participate. We also give 20% of popcorn sales to the boys for their scout account to help pay for uniform parts and summer camp or any unpaid registration fees. The den leader didn't even mention it in her meetings. The boys lost out.

 

We provided a calendar upon joining, send info to the parents by email [preferred contact method], but we know it takes parents hearing things several different times/ways before they realize "oh yeah, we need to sign up for xyz." The den leader needs to be part of providing information to their den, or needs to ask for help.

 

It's harder to go visit her den and provide information since she changed meeting nights. I work on that night of the week, so does the cubmaster.

 

I feel badly that the boys missed out on so many things so far this year. 1 campout, 1 fundraiser to help them pay for scouting, 1 Halloween pack meeting with bobcat ceremony, and a field trip to the local tv station.

 

right now it looks like I'm on a search for someone as replacement den leader. I'll also advise the advancement chair to be ready to purchase some Bear Rank badges, eh?

 

goal to figure out how to get this den leader to branch out to the other methods of scouting besides advancement.

[Jeffrey H]

If she wanted to move the den meetings to her home it may be approved by the committee...

Just an observation.  Does it really require a committee vote for a Den Leader to decide where the Den will meet?  I'm a Den Leader and we usually meet at our CO along with the other Dens.  However, I do have the freedom to move our Den meetings to my home or another location depending on Den activities.  As a courtesy, I inform my Cubmaster just so he will know we are okay and if he needs to contact me.  Our CO is a good place to meet, but it does have it's limitations.

[ScoutNut]

Yep, no approval process needed here either.

 

Den leader lets the CM know where/when their den meetings are. This is so that the CM can coordinate Pack usage of the meeting room at our CO with all of the other parish organizations that use it too. The CM also can let new/prospective den families know where/when the den meets. If there is some kind of usage conflict, the CM, and the DL work it out together.

 

 

 

 

[Lisabob]

What would concern me is the apparent attitude that the den leader seems to have toward the goal of the program. The goal is NOT to get a bunch of stuff. The goal is to provide a solid, fun, character-building program for the kids. The patches, beltloops, and other items they earn along the way are really just tokens, or possibly incentives. When the stuff becomes the purpose, then the program loses its value.

 

Have a sit-down with you, her, the CM, and the UC. (You said already that the UC thinks she is short-changing the program). Firmly, yet politely, reiterate the purpose of your pack's program. Let her know that it is important for leaders in this pack to all be on the same page. Give her an opportunity to declare that she really isn't all that interested or that she doesn't see things in a similar way. Provide her some kind of graceful way out. Maybe she will take it. If not, then yes, I would be working to find a replacement who does subscribe to your pack leaders' philosophy about what the program should be.

 

If you do the above, you also need to be ready for her to leave - possibly abruptly and loudly. Before you meet with her, make sure your pack leadership (CM, you as CC/COR, and your pack's UC-friend) have a plan for how you will calmly and graciously explain her probable departure to the rest of the pack (or at least, her den). No matter what she may say/do, be sure you (pack leadership) take the high road in any public communications so that you don't end up dragging everyone down into the muck. Also have a plan for who will step in to lead the den, both in the short term and in the longer term. Many parents dislike chaos and conflict. To the extent that you can minimize these during any transition period, you may be able to keep at least some of the boys in the den.

 

 

[ScoutNut]

You know, re-reading some of the posts here, it seems to me that the issue you have with this DL is interfering with your ability to deal with her on any level.

 

The Pack also does not seem to be supporting her den.

 

You stated - "It would have been a no-brainer to participate. We also give 20% of popcorn sales to the boys for their scout account to help pay for uniform parts and summer camp or any unpaid registration fees. The den leader didn't even mention it in her meetings. The boys lost out."

 

Yet in a prior post you stated - "the popcorn kernel did a presentation in her den that night and sent forms home with each boy."

 

Why didn't the Popcorn Kernel tell the den about this in his popcorn presentation to the den? Why wasn't information on the Booth Sale, and the Scout Accounts included in the packet the Popcorn Kernel sent home with each boy? With the parents "sitting in the back of the room with their mouths hung open", it would have been the perfect opportunity to get the info directly to the parents, and to get them fired up about selling popcorn.

 

It seems to me the "boys lost out" because of the Pack, as well as the DL.

 

You stated - "We provided a calendar upon joining, send info to the parents by email [preferred contact method], but we know it takes parents hearing things several different times/ways before they realize "oh yeah, we need to sign up for xyz." The den leader needs to be part of providing information to their den, or needs to ask for help."

 

When you KNOW that the DL is bad at passing along info to her den, why do you have to wait for HER to ask for help? Why not be proactive and send info along to the den by other means? By waiting for the DL to do, what you KNOW she will NOT do, it is the Pack, along with the DL that is letting these boys down.

 

Also, if you HAVE given the families in her den a Pack calendar, and you HAVE sent info to her den families via email, why is it only the DL's fault that the families don't particulate in things. It seems to me that the families should take some of the responsibility too.

 

 

 

[5yearscouter]

I can't believe we are the only pack in the universe that really wants everyone to meet at a certain location, the parents discussed why in the start up meetings for the pack and agreed that it was best for safety and continuity of the program. If we don't use the school consistently every week at the same time and such, we tend to run into scheduling difficulties as well, where the school won't allow us to use the facilities and that would be BAD for the existence of the pack for pack meetings, blue and gold, derby and all the other things we do at the school.

 

We didn't care about the different night of the week, until that became a problem for the school custodians.

 

We have den leaders who have the occassional thing at their house/backyard but only if the cubmaster and/or committee chair is notified and we've done a facilities inspection (informally, but if there is a pool and a big giant barking dog, we want to know about it, know what I mean?)

 

The den leader has given the impression that she's got it under control. She doesn't want anyone into her den, so we've been as nice as possible about letting her have her space. The den leader said she would deal with tshirts, campout sign ups, and popcorn presentation on her own.

 

Honestly, since she chose to move to thursday nights, we have difficulty getting other pack personel to her meetings on thursday nights. It was great that she said she would deal with it. When nobody from her den signed up for popcorn sales the popcorn kernel went into the den to see what was going on, but by the time he could get with all the parents it was after the store sales.

 

I do have incredible difficulty dealing impersonally with this den leader. The emails implying or outright stating that every other den leader and pack leader is a disorganized baffoon has put a damper on my enthusiasm and respect for this person.

 

I could list the things she's criticized about our pack, but that would start to sound like I'm really complaining about her

 

In short, every event or activity we are having in the pack, she thinks we should do it differently. Group hike at scout camp should be individual den hikes; tshirts should have been bought online for $12.99 each instead of locally for $6 each; the campout should have been a different location, different time of year, different everything. The pack should have no limitations on belt loops or awards, it's ok if a scout joins 2 weeks before the end of the year, we can still get him his wolf badge and if you add time to the requirments then you are adding to the requirements and I'm gonna tell on you at council, the committee meetings are too long, too short, not detailed enough, stop discussing every detail. I have answered her complaints calmly and informatively for the last year -- I'm starting to reach the end of my rope.

 

At what point is it ok to just say "hey, you don't seem to fit in with our pack program, so let's agree to disagree, here's the contact info for another pack in the area, maybe they will meet your needs more appropriately. "

[moosetracker]

Sad thing is, if you don't get her either straightened out.. (seems impossible) or a person more intune with the program before this den gets into Webelos, even if they make it to AOL, they will most likely drop out of Boy scouts..

 

Most troops will not run (at least should not run).. their troop in a way that they hand out ranks and meritbadges and sign-off on requirements by just showing up, or by not showing up, but since those that did the requirement got signed off, the others expect to be signed off too. Many troops will expect the boys to be self motivated to earn the requirements & MB..

 

Webloes is a time to slowly get them adjusted to the way a troop runs, part of that is expecting more effort from them in order to get signed off.. Part of it is letting them start to learn self- motivation.. As well as getting them more prepared for higher adventure with camping and more interesting challenging outings.. She is preparing boys who expect to be hand fed, and they will not be able to work in a troop environment and drop out.

 

 

[Lisabob]

Any time that the CO decides to do it, is an acceptable time to have a heart to heart that includes helping a leader identify other opportunities (ie, leave the pack). COs have wide latitude from the BSA to select their own leadership. And it is quite rare for "council" to do, or say, anything much about a CO's decision because the council does not own or run a unit - the CO does. So let her "tattle" because it likely won't make any difference, anyway.

 

Having said that, you know what, she's right about some things you mention. You shouldn't be adding a time requirement to rank advancements if there isn't one built in by the BSA. If a boy earns his bobcat and his bear in the same month, there is nothing wrong with giving him both at the same pack meeting. It happens more often than you might expect.

 

Lots of packs have den meetings on different nights. In fact, that's the norm in my neck of the woods. If I went back to being a DL and that wasn't the case, it would bug me, too. My schedule changes roughly every 4 months. Expecting me to commit to a common den meeting night for the full year would mean I'd have to decline to be a den leader at all for your pack. Aside from that, it means a parent with kids in more than one den has to make a tough choice - whose den to stick with that night? It means I, as a den leader, am going to be dealing with more chaos (more kids, more parents at the common location - sigh). It means I have to coordinate my every little plan to meet elsewhere with your leadership, which gets tedious. (I'm busy, you're busy, let's not make this too hard!) None of those would have made me a happy camper, back when I was a den leader. So I can sympathize with her on that.

 

The logistics matter is different. If she's truly leaving the room a mess or something then that's something that needs to be discussed. But as your pack grows, you may find more people who, for whatever reason, don't want to or can't hold their den meetings in the same place/same time as everybody else.

 

So maybe she has some good points that are just hard to see, because you don't get along. And maybe she also needs to be encouraged to look for a pack that better fits her needs and style. The two aren't mutually exclusive options.

 

 

[Pack212Scouter]

You aren't the only Pack Our CO provides meeting rooms and requires that we meet on-site for both supervision reasons and accountablity. Additionally our Council wants a tour permit any time a Den meets somewhere other than it's regularly scheduled location. So, as a result, regular Den Meetings need to be on campus.

 

After two years as Cubmaster and four in the Pack, I much prefer this scenario. It gives the Cubmasters a chance to look in on every Den Meeting at least once or twice a month and intercept any problems that are brewing. It gives us a chance to disseminate information to the Dens & Leaders on a one-on-one basis. And it provides a central point for parents to have contact with Pack leadership.(This message has been edited by pack212scouter)

[5yearscouter]

Our pack currently have 45 boys in it. all but the 7 bears meet on weds night. The bear den leader originally said she wanted to move to thurs night because of a conflict with her work, so I obtained the permission of the school. She now admits that she was doing it to get away from everyone else in the pack. The custodians complain that she doesn't show up to meetings (so maybe even less than 6 weeks of meetings to Bear, she was sick at least one week) and she doesn't take out the trash when she leaves (our only real clean up we have to do), and she doesn't watch the kids when they are running around outside in the dark.

 

She told us that she does not want to have the meetings at her own home, so she will move back to Weds night. But She expects pack leadership to make an appointment to enter her room for any reason.

 

The pack has the run of a building at the school with 12 classrooms, so most dens have a classroom, and then a blank room and then another classroom so that everyone is not on top of each other. We don't do joint opening or closing ceremonies or anything similar, so each den is set to do their own thing. the school is open to us from 6:30 til 8:15. We have to put things back how we found them and take out the trash. The custodians don't come in and check up on us to see if we left a mess, it's scout's honor.

 

The interruptions we've done in dens this year have been focused on collecting applications and payments from new scouts that joined after roundup, and youth protection training for all parents --our pack requires it. that came about by a unanimous vote at a pack meeting brought up by a concerned parent.

 

There has been a visit from the popcorn kernel. We try to not interrupt meetings in any way. We may drop off a new application or membership list, or something the den leader ordered from the scout shop which we try to give them before a meeting starts. Everything else we just catch everyone in the hallway as they enter or exit the building to sign up for campout, tell us their tshirt size, sign up for popcorn store sales.

 

If the den leader doesn't want to deal with any of the "pack stuff" they just tell the parents to see xyz person in the hallway on their way out--most of the den leaders really love this option so they don't have to deal with collecting payment for campouts or paperwork for stuff.

 

For thurs night den we have provided the den leader with the sign up sheets after our meetings on Weds night for her den. she's not putting the sign up sheets out there or mentioning them in her den meetings.

 

We will give out the bobcat and bear in the same month if she submits the paperwork while den leader. The boy's book will be signed and we won't disappoint the boy.

We gave out the bobcat and wolf badge to the new wolf in her den who joined 2 weeks before the end of the Wolf year. should have realized that was an issue with HER, but she blamed it on the parent when we were incredulous at how you can do the whole Wolf book in

[ScoutNut]

Just wondering, what happened to last years Wolf den? You said that she was the assistant den leader last year, which would seem to suggest that there was more Scouts in the den than just her son. Yet, you also said that of the 7 Bears, only 2 had been in Scouts before September 1st, her son, and one boy who joined 2 weeks before the end of the school year.

 

How many Scouts did the den lose, and did you ever follow up with them to find out why everyone in the den left?

 

 

[5yearscouter]

Well..... last year's wolf den started with 7 or 8 at roundup. 4 at recharter in January. 1 dropped after blue and gold.

so that leaves 3.

 

We know that the Wolf den leader was very advancement motivated, 30 belt loops and/or pins in a month, and she was assistant leader at that time. We had some pack committee discussions on that one as to how to fit this into our pack budget. Created a New policy, pack will pay for 2 belt loops a month regularly, if you earn more than that parents can pay for them. Exceptions would be for a Webelos den earning 4 a month for sportsman.

 

1 more joined in May and got his bobcat and his wolf badge also in May. that's 4.

 

only 2 went to day camp over the summer.

 

The Den leader left in August with his son to join his LDS Ward's pack. the boy who joined in May also went to the same LDS pack as it was his Ward too.

 

Leaving 2 with this assistant den leader,

who seems to be taking the tack that if you can do Wolf in about 2 weeks,

Bears should take about 2 months.

 

You think she'll think of this exponentially and want Webelos to take about 2 years?(This message has been edited by 5yearscouter)