Bear badge in <2months oh my!

[5yearscouter]

I'm CC and COR for my pack,

and My Bear den is um, surpising--Supposedly they've completed the Bear badge in

[Pack212Scouter]

I don't have any done yet, but I have some Bears that will probably be done before Christmas break. It is certainly possible if they are active and concentrate on advancement requirements, and especially if they went to resident camp and/or day camp. We ask our Dens to break up advancement with Belt Loops for some fun. It sounds to me like boys may be dropping because Cub Scouts feels too much like school and homework in this Den.

 

I would be worried, but it sounds like you are in a corner with this Den. You only have one leader? So no backup. If you drop her (or rather your CO would really have to be to one to remove her) then you may vary well have the Den fold anyway. The bottom line is that in Cub Scouts it is parent signed advancement, so proof is really not needed. If they say that they have done something, you pretty much have to take their word for it. Something that you might consider doing is if you have access to your District Executive or Unit Commissioner, see if they would meet with the two of you and explain the need for fun in the program to retain boys. It might get through to her better if it comes from "professional" Scouters.(This message has been edited by pack212scouter)

[5yearscouter]

The attendance shows they aren't really all that active, at least not all 7 of them.

only 2 went to day camp, the rest just joined Sept 1st!

 

She's signing all the books, parents seem to be sitting in the back of the room with their mouths hung open. I don't think parents even know that their son's have done anything, or what they've done yet.

 

We really don't want her to focus on belt loops!! Last year she was asst den leader for wolves and her son earned 30 belt loops in one month!! yeah, we put an ixnay on that, if she wanted that many she'd have to pay for them, so she ordered them from national supply and that was that.

 

I THOUGHT things were under control after that discussion along with a couple of other pack leader training sessions on how to make things more fun for the boys over the summer. She SAID she has the den meetings planned out for the boys to earn their Bear by the end of January or first of February. I guess she changed her mind.

 

blah!

 

Unit commissioner is no help, he was a bear den leader last year and he thinks she's shorty cutting the program.

 

 

 

 

[ScoutNut]

Starting Sept 1st, I think the most meetings they could have had is 6. That is 2 requirements per meeting. Even with sending some of the pieces home as homework, that is a LOT to cover. Including making things, and outings, completing all 12 requirements in 5-6 weeks seems rather far fetched.

 

If she is the one signing off in the books, how does she know that the "homework" was actually done?

 

What does she plan on doing for the rest of the year? She better have a good plan that does not include earning another 30 belt loops. You might mention that none of the belt loops earned by the boys as Tiger, Wolf, or Bear Scouts, will count toward Webelos requirements next year. They will have to be re-earned as a Webelos for them to count.

 

It sounds to me like you need to sit her down, have a heart-to-heart talk, and get some straight answers. Like how Scouts could have completed requirements at meetings they were not at.

 

By the way, The brand new Scouts can NOT receive their Bear badge until they have completed, and received, their Bobcat badge.

 

It may end up that you will have to give, at least some, of the boys their Bear badge. Even if you strongly suspect she is short-cutting the program. However, I suggest you start looking for a new den leader ASAP.

 

[Basementdweller]

Did the bears attend summer camp?

 

When I was the Bear den leader we went to Resident camp and with that we were done by christmas and spent the rest of the time working on Arrow points and having fun.

 

I agree and doubt they have their rank advancement done.

 

Our bear den had a bike rodeo last night in the fellowship hall at the CO is was a hoot to watch. It is getting dark just too darn early

[Rockford8070]

In our pack we usually give the books out when the boss cross over to the next rank in the spring, that way they have all summer to work on it. So in that case it would be possible. But what you're describing sounds a bit dubious indeed. I'd be all for having a chat with this DL and make sure that she's doing things by the book.

[John-in-KC]

If a Cub Scout attends Day Camp...

 

If the Day Camp PD pays attention to advancement matrices in designing activities...

 

If a Cub Scout has the opportunity to and attends a Council Resident Overnight Camp ...

 

then, I see very little problem with Bear by November. It can be done.

[5yearscouter]

I've had the discussion of what will you do now? "earn more awards, belt loops and do all the electives to get 10 arrow points."

I've had the discussion of TWB belt loops don't count for Webelos. "So?"

I've had the discussion of scouts dropping. "Their parents just aren't committed to scouting."

I've had the banging head against the wall moments too.

 

I've looked at day camp achievements-- 2 boys went-- only 2 of the boys were scouts over the summer--and there was very little actually done at camp that would count for Bear. The 2 boys who have been Bears since June 1st, yeah, I could see their bear badge could be done by Nov if their parents are on the ball. since she's one of the parents, it is a given I guess.

 

But the other 5 boys didn't go to day camp and just joined Sept 1st.

 

I know they can't get Bear til they get bobcat. I don't want to give them Bobcat one month and then Bear the next. Cubmaster refuses to give them both bobcat and bear in the same month.

 

 

I think she's signing everything she planned to do in a meeting and has assigned as homework,

but not based on who attended meetings

and who returned the homework.

 

I've asked for attendance to match up with her list of achievements done by date.

 

I'm doing damage control a bit with parents about how one of them steps up as asst leader they can push for meetings to have more active fun stuff and less homework.

And how if their child didn't really do something that she signed, it doesn't count.

I'm talking to one of the dads who is an Eagle to see if he has any interest in leading/assisting.

 

 

Would you replace this den leader?

 

We've gone round and round with her on many things and honestly I don't think she views scouting the way the rest of the pack does. Disagreements on how to do roundup, excessive belt loops in a month, awards not earned, no trained asst leader, letting parents act as asst leaders before leader application and ypt completed. We had pack tshirts for every boy in her den, told the parents to pick them up in the den meeting, and she didn't hand them out--she was waiting for the parents to ask for them. She sent out a scathing email about no popcorn sales sheets for scouts in her den--when the popcorn kernel did a presentation in her den that night and sent forms home with each boy.

 

She moved her meetings to a different night of the week so she wouldn't have any interruptions by the pack leadership. We all meet at the school on the same nigth of the week. We've told her that she has to move back to the same night as the rest of us because the school is unhappy with the status of the rooms on the night she uses. Custodians are complaining.

 

I'm really just venting I guess.

I know the decision that has to be made for the health of the Bear den succeeding for the coming years.

 

An example of Bear Achievement #3.

She did no flag ceremonies, She had the boys write a report for a, b, e and did j in meeting. what fun is that?

[moosetracker]

So from you last post, it sounds like you are talking to the parents who are in her den (or were in her den before their kids dropped out.) in order to get the background info..

 

Unless the Parent who was an Eagle scout has scheduling conflict he sounds like a great person to get to step up, or at least to get information from as to how this DL is working things.. (I got from an earlier comment parents seem to be sitting in the back of the room with their mouths hung open that most don't know the program. The Eagle scout should (unless he came from an Eagle Mill Troop)..

 

If all your background info is not from the Eagle Scout Dad, then sounds like the parents are aware of the situation.

 

If you haven't done so already I would contact the parents of those that dropped to find out if it was due to the "all work - no play" Den that their boys dropped out.. Usually those that dropped out, know at least some of what is not working right in the den. Also they may consider returning if you do make changes and let them know about it, giving their feedback some credit as to the changes made.

[ScoutNut]

Nothing wrong with her meeting at a time/day that works better for her. In this case, it just can not be at the school.

 

Bear Ach #3 might not have been a lot of fun for the boys the way she did it, however, if the boys actually turned in their report for requirements a, b, and e, with completing requirement j in the den meeting, she HAS actually completed the Achievement.

 

Given everything you have posted - Yes, I would replace this leader. If not this year, definitely for Webelos.

[Snow_White]

Thanks for sharing additional information - posters here can give better advice when they know a little more about the dynamics of the situation.

 

A couple of years ago, about half of our Bear den had earned rank by mid-November, so I would say that it's not that rare of an occurence.

 

I am surprised by the comment that the CM refuses to give them both Bobcat and Bear at the same pack meeting - not sure that I can find support for that position in any of the program materials. If they've earned them both, they should get them both! It seems likely to me, from what you have said here, that some of the requirements have been skirted, but if it's been signed off by the parent and/or den leader as Akela, there is not much you can do at this point. Don't punish the scouts for the errors of the adults. With that said, keep in mind that the boys are probably more perceptive than we give them credit for, and have a strong sense of what is and isn't fair - they probably know when they are "getting away with something." Let the past be past, but make sure that going forward you can hold them accountable for really completing the requirements.

 

Other than that, what does the CM think about the situation - you haven't said much about him in all of this? I sense that your issues with this den leader go well beyond advancement and meeting structure. You made a point of mentioning that these scouts are not participating in pack activities and fundraisers. Is this den leader not encouraging and supporting the rest of the pack? You said that 5 of the boys are new as of Sept 1. New parents often do not even know the difference between a den and pack, and which event is which can be confusing to them - but their primary source of information is usually the den leader. If they don't get the info from the DL, it may not be entirely their fault.

 

Ultimately, as COR, you do have the authority to remove the DL. But it is best to have the backing of the rest of the pack leadership, and a replacement lined up. But I think your mind is already made up...

[5yearscouter]

Cubmaster thinks we've already lost the whole den anyway, at least to the program how cub scouts "should be done--fun with a purpose." They have the purpose but not the fun. He's thinking none of the parents know what is what and the den leader has them under her control. I think it's not quite as bad as that, there is hope that another parent has their head on straight and realizes that scouting shouldn't be about just doing achievements out of the book.

 

Other dens have den cheers, names and a den flag. Other dens have made things for the pack meeting halloween party--decorations and masks for the kids. She got the same info as every other den but is choosing to ignore it. Basically saying "it's not in the Bear book under Requirements, I don't have to do it."

 

the den leader tells the pack she has everything under control, please stay out of her den meetings, send any communication thru her only.

 

Then the parents don't get info on the campout til late, their tshirts come in and 2 weeks later they still don't have them, they didn't get info on signing up to sell popcorn in front of stores, but did get the packets to sell at home, they weren't encouraged to come to the pack meeting.

 

I know that if the boys have earned their Bear badge, they should get it. We usually have plans for an early Bear badge Dec/Jan presentation-ceremony, and then do a bigger bear Badge ceremony at Blue and Gold. We aren't prepared to do a Bear Badge Ceremony in October, when we haven't done any of the Bobcat ceremonys for the new boys in her den.

 

and if boys have been told they've earned the Bear badge, they will most likely get the Bear badge even if the den leader signed things without actually making sure the boys did them. Most of the boys did NOT turn in the reports. Most of the boys have missed 2 meetings, so that means they've been doing even more of the Bear badge as homework.

 

I realize you can do Achievement #3 the way she did it and never touch on any of the flag etiquette/ceremony stuff. You can also do Backyard Golf, Horseshoes and den leader teach the boys a new game[not each boy teach the boys a new game] and count it for having completed 15a,b & c. And you can make trail mix while discussing junk food and count it for 9b,d & e. Do these in a 45 minute meeting with 5-6 boys in attendance.

 

But why would you want to rush thru this stuff at such a pace?

 

 

[shortridge]

I can certainly see this from your perspective. But I can also imagine this DL telling the same type of tales about pack leadership who want to micromanage her meeting times, keep pushing stupid popcorn sales, dictate a maximum level of belt loops that can be earned, etc. I'm not saying you're wrong - I'm just saying there are two sides to every story.

 

I don't want to give them Bobcat one month and then Bear the next. Cubmaster refuses to give them both bobcat and bear in the same month.

 

Why not? (To both items.) What's wrong with that?

 

She moved her meetings to a different night of the week so she wouldn't have any interruptions by the pack leadership. We all meet at the school on the same nigth of the week. We've told her that she has to move back to the same night as the rest of us because the school is unhappy with the status of the rooms on the night she uses. Custodians are complaining.

 

She could always have her meetings off-site. Nothing wrong with that. Den meetings should really fit the schedule of the boys in the den, not be at the convenience of the pack leadership.

 

about how one of them steps up as asst leader they can push for meetings to have more active fun stuff and less homework.

 

They could "push" for this now simply by asking themselves. Sounds like they don't want to confront the DL.

 

But why would you want to rush thru this stuff at such a pace?

 

That's really the key question, isn't it? Why haven't you asked her?

[5yearscouter]

I've asked her why so fast.

she says "why not?"

"then we can have less meetings a month for the rest of the year." and "We can focus on earning more belt loops and other cub scout awards in our meetings." If she said "so we can then do the rest of the bear book as electives" it might take away a bit of the sting of Bear at breakneck speed. know what I mean?

 

I don't think it's fair to the boys to push them to go thru the Bear program so fast that their heads are spinning.

 

I think there will be a lot of head shaking from other parents if the boys get their bobcat and Bear in the same meeting. The Cubmaster thinks it's a horrible idea. I don't have a problem with them getting bobcat in Nov and then Bear in December [i may have said otherwise but that's not what I mean] but both of those meetings are short pack meetings--one a visit to a govt office, tour from the Mayor and then a quick pack meeting. The other turns into a zoo with a Christmas party and visit from Santa, so the awards at both times tend to be overlooked. But they can be done if earned.

 

 

I really don't want the boys or the parents of the new boys to hear parents saying how "that isn't possible" or that they are "shorty cutting the program," or that "those Bears really didn't earn Bear, it was given to them." from parents who been thru the Bear program and know that it usually takes longer than 6 weeks to do it "right."

 

I can only shush that kind of talk for so long, even though, yeah the parents should be nicer than that in the scouting program. I try to keep it to myself [and share with you and cubmaster] my opinion on this issue. I've been thru the Bear program with my 2 sons, and it's my favorite year in cub scouts. So much fun stuff in that book and she chose to do the schoolwork. [gasp, sob, cry]

 

Our pack is charterd to the parents. The parents have chosen the main meeting place for the pack to be the school. Yes, den leaders have meetings at their homes, but that is on a case by case basis when the school is not available on a particular week. The parents chose it as being more convenient and "safer." Some den leaders have pools and big scary dogs so parents prefer to meet at the school. It's also made it much easier to recruit den leaders when you have a pre-arranged meeting location on "neutral" ground. and you don't have to clean house each week for a den meeting.

 

If she wanted to move the den meetings to her home it may be approved by the committee, but it may work to keep her den families closer to her, and even less involved in the Pack activities. How would that benefit the boys and the Pack? A Cub Scout helps the Pack Go and the Pack helps the Cub scout grow. Dens are important, but the dens don't exist if the Pack doesn't go.

 

Our pack is chartered to the Parents of the Pack. The Parents have chosen to keep the yearly registration fees as low as possible, with a few dollars over the cost of BSA, insurance and Boy's life mag. We have a big push for the boys to participate in the twice a year fundraisers to help the pack go and keep costs low to the families. A whole den ignoring the fundraisers yet earning every possible award puts the pack at risk financially.

[moosetracker]

May be too late for fundraisers past, but for future, the committee might vote for a certain participation per scout in the fundraisers (either in time or $ amt), or that the parents either cough up a certain amount of cash, or pay for their sons own awards as they are earned.. It would at least put a stop to someone (or some den) not helping with the fundraisers but earning tons of costly awards.

 

When my son was in cub scouts we had another den at the same level as our den. Seemed like the den leader there was similar. They were not there for Tigers, came in at Wolf or Bear.. We felt like the tortise compared to the hare, when next to her group, and our den parents asked if we wanted to try to compete, the unanimous answer was "No" our boys were having fun, and the boys got their ranks in due time. then suddenly "Poof" the whole den was no more.. Not even one boy was left to move into our remaining den. From what I remember there was some huge arguement or blow-up between the parents and they all quit the pack.

 

Our boys plodded on to complete the AOL. The tortise won the race. Every single boy of the den then divided off to 3 different troops, but they all eventually made Eagle too.

 

Your right, racing through the program does the boys no good..