what to do? webelos needing to finish up without DL

[Oak Tree]

I don't think this is end-running any of the requirements. The Scout is still going to complete all of the expected work.

 

What it is doing is getting around a personality conflict. Since it appears that everyone involved is happy with this method of dealing with the issue, I don't see the problem.

[perdidochas]

IM_kathy,

 

Have you actually discussed this with the DL, or only the mother/son? Remember there are always at least one more sides to any story than participants in the story. You may not have all the facts.

 

Second, to all those criticizing supposedly getting around requirements. Would it be any different if this kid joined a different Pack to finish up? Sometimes kids and adults can get to a point that the adult does nothing but antagonize the kid (and vice versa). In a school situation, the principal would move the kid out of the adult's class. This seems to be a similar situation. Also, technically, an ADL can sign off as well. Kathy should sign up as ADL to do this.

 

Basement, why are you such a stickler now? In the earlier thread about AOL, you let your 10 yr 4 month old son (who presumably hadn't had 6 months past 4th grade completion) get the AOL? That's as much of a violation of BSA rules as this is.

[moosetracker]

It sounds like there isn't much to finish this scout up for AOL if what IM_Kathy list is it.

 

If they wanted to end-run to AOL the mother would be in just as much rights to pull the scout out of the den and finish him up as a Lone-scout with her being the Leader.. Instead she is haveing IM_Kathy finish him up, and IM_Kathy seem to be a causual acquantance, so it is no benifit to IM_Kathy to cheat the system for him. Sounds like they are trying to be as much on the up-and-up as possible so that no one can accuse them of cheating to get AOL.

[evmori]

Second, to all those criticizing supposedly getting around requirements. Would it be any different if this kid joined a different Pack to finish up?

 

Completely different. There are requirements that are to be done with the WDL. This person isn't a WDL nor is she a registered Cub Scout leader.

[perdidochas]

If Kathy gets registered as an ADL, I don't see the problem. Nothing that a WDL signs off is rocket science (and I'm a 3rd yr WDL).

[Basementdweller]

It isn't circumventing the requirements?????

 

One of the points of Webelos is to remove the parents from signing off requirements and having a Den leader approve completion.

 

The lesson this young man is learning is I don't have to try to get along with anyone and my parents will bail me out.

 

 

I think he needs to stay in the den and deal with the situation he created, If the den leader throws him out then he needs to find another pack.

 

Im Kathy get over the ego trip, you have no right or need to intervene. You are not helping the situation, you are preventing the lesson that needs to be learned here. The boy screwed up and now needs to apologize to the den leader and his mom needs to do the same.

[moosetracker]

Basementdweller where did you see that the scout was the one to cause the problem. I have reread IM_kathy's posts again to see if I missed something. I did not..

 

My son had a issue with a SM once. The thing that made the SM dislike my son was 1) he was young, he was a new crossover and came over due to getting AOL, but was not of age or grade. 2) My son was on the quiet shy side. 3) My son buddied up with a boy with disabilities that was in his original den, and so they were both seen as mentally slow.

 

So he would yell at him and tell him he would make sure he never made Eagle, and notify others of changes in an event (like we are meeting at place B at a different time, rather then place A.).

 

So we found another troop. I guess by your account, my son should have apologized for being young, shy and friendly to people with disablities. Because this is what the SM disliked about him.

 

There may be something that the boy did, but you don't have enough info from the DL dislikes him to draw the conclusion that it is all the boys fault and he needs to apologize for it.

[evmori]

If Kathy gets registered as an ADL, I don't see the problem. Nothing that a WDL signs off is rocket science (and I'm a 3rd yr WDL).

 

Still an end run and circumventing the requirements. Why is it so hard to work within the framework we are given?

[ScoutLass]

Actually, I see a bigger problem here and I'm surprised no one else has mentioned it. An adult saying they do not want to deal with a kid, gossiping about it, etc is a much bigger offense than the boy and his mom trying to find a solution. The WDL does not deserve to be a DL. The adult leadership is there for the boys, the boys come first. Petty disagreements with parents, being "irked" by the behavior of a child, etc, cannot come between the DL and being there for the boys. In our pack, she would be asked to step down.

 

From what I've read, the boy isn't trying to shirk the work, the adult is the one that isn't following the spirit of scouting and has made it clear she doesn't want work with the boy. The boy could take the easy way out and wait until he's old enough for a troop, or he could finish putting in the work and realize the importance of finishing what you start, even when an adult, someone he should be able to trust, has let him down in a big way.

[moosetracker]

Both are good points ScoutLass.

 

In the first I know what you are saying, I just have seen this with school teachers, managers at work, in scouting and in other places. If I was honest, I guess I know I have felt that way about people, but I don't think I was in a position where my feelings effected what they were doing, if anything if strong enough I might have chosen to leave a group to dis-associate. I guess I just take this for normal human behavior. So didn't think about the fact it should not be allowed in scouting, because it really should not be allowed for a teacher or manager either.

 

With the second point you summed up my feelings exactly but, I just didn't know how to put that into words as well as you just did.

 

 

 

[IM_Kathy]

I did speak with the DL the other night and then was with her this evening with our sons' Troop.

 

The chat the other night she went on and on and on... mostly bashing the mom and only had 1 incident that would be totally directed at the boy and was dealt with properly though I'm not sure how her tone of voice was. She's one of those people that doesn't hide anger well.

 

The basic jist is the fact that the mom is a single parent of 2 kids and often has to juggle between getting both kids to different places at same times... the rest of the boys in the den have a parent always stay. So biggest thing DL kept saying was I'm not a babysitter... I'm sorry but when I was DL for my son and had her oldest there was only ever 2 adults there unless it was a field trip because I had 1 special needs boy that I required his parent to attend those activities because when he wasn't in "routine" settings he had a lot more issues.

 

So issue is - DL wants mom there all the time and mom can't be there... DL gets upset about that and the boy has picked up on that and the DL has yelled at mom more than once in front of the boy... and the DL is not purposely treating the scout different, but that is how he is percieving it... Gee, who would want to put up with that?

 

as for me having an ego - man, I've relooked at my posts and my thinking pattern in all of this and I don't see any ego issue here... and I'm a tougher judge on myself than anyone else.

[moosetracker]

While my den did have a policy of at least one parent staying, it was simply because there was a policy of the entire pack. This was a while back son was webelos, and I am unsure if the cub specifics brought up the fact that by Webelos II the parents should be weened of staying for the whole meeting. Anyway, all we did as parents is talk in a corner and stay out of the DL's way..

 

But now the specifics is pretty clear that in a Webelos II den the parents should not stay, so the DL is incorrect to even demand that. Really this parent is the only one that is following what a parent should do at this level. Luckily she will have no issues when the boy crosses over, although troops don't like drop and go parents who don't take a few minutes to understand the program, they are fine with parents who may only come for a few minutes at the beginning or end, or get involved with helping in small ways when they can. But they also deal with the drop and go parent, if that is all she can offer.

 

Honestly Kathy, I did not read ego in your posts either.. But neither did I read anything "from you" about the boy being the cause of the problem, and yet it that same post stated he should stay and deal with the situation he created. Basementdweller is someone I normally agree with, I am unsure if he has mis-read this thread, (maybe thinking you posted the piece about the boy peeing on the rug when it was I in jest) or this is reminding him of a past event he was in that was the scouts fault, or if we are on so totally different wavelengths with this that I just can not see his viewpoint at all.

 

Personnally I think you are doing fine by this scout to make this offer. Best of luck to you and to him.

[shortridge]

With the CM on board, I think this is an OK compromise. However, before starting, I'd advise the parent to go talk to the CM herself and lay the situation out on the table, as I suggested earlier. It's her kid, not yours.

 

The WDL is definitely in the wrong - these kids are almost Boy Scouts; why is she requiring parents to attend every meeting?? - but there's not going to be any changing her mind at this late juncture.

 

The fact that "the DL has yelled at mom more than once in front of the boy," though, deserves a serious response from the CM. But the parent should be the one to bring that up.

[evmori]

Did the DL convey to mom she wants here there all the time? If not, shame on the DL and shame on the DL for losing it in front of a Cub.

 

Still, going outside the framework is not teaching this kid how to work and play with others.

[Lisabob]

With both the CM and DL on board, this is somewhat more workable. Let me ask this, though: What does the boy still need to complete in order to earn his AoL?

 

If there are a bunch of "with your den" requirements, then I think he needs to do those with his den. An unofficial "den" of one, led by you, isn't really fitting with the spirit of those requirements. And although it might solve a short-term problem, imagine the headaches it could cause if several of the other boys decide they want their own dens, too.

 

Since the current DL is so adamant that the boy have someone there with him (and I agree that's neither reasonable nor necessary, when we are talking Webelos who are almost ready to join a troop), maybe you can offer to fill in for the boy's mom - or your older boy scout son might tag along as this boy's buddy, if DL is ok with that. That might allow the boy to continue in his own den, with the other boys, at least where den activities are required for completion of AoL requirements.

 

If there are no more "with your den" requirements, then let the boy work individually (with you, your son, whoever) to finish up the requirements. Then you can offer to assist by going with the boy (and his mom?) to a meeting with the current DL where the boy shows the DL all he has been doing and gets HER sign-off on his book.

 

Since in webelos, the DL can designate who "akela" is (doesn't always have to be the DL), it is also possible the current DL could just designate you as the boy's signatory for whatever is left. But again, the pressure from other families to do their own thing too, might be a good reason why the pack would not want to go in that direction. And the boy would miss out on any group activities that he'd otherwise have done "with his den."