Would you count this as an AoL activity?

[trainerlady]

A quick of history - there are 9 boys in my WII den, 3 have completed all 20 pins, and all their AoL requirements and are waiting for their 6 months past 4th grade graduation. 6 boys are at various levels of completion of AoL and all have 9-16 pins. 3 boys played CYO sports for their school this fall, they have yet to attend a meeting (3 den, 1 pack and a troop visit so far). Many outdoor troop visits have been offered to the group (this fall and last spring/fall) to fulfill the AoL requirement of attending an outdoor Scouting activity with a troop. All events this fall have fallen on game days for the CYO sports kids but the others chose not to go. No one had conflicts last spring/fall they just didn't want to go - too far, not interested in event, too cold, too wet, you get the picture.

 

I have arranged a hike with the big brother troop that the 6 in question will more than likely go to a couple of weeks before our scheduled AoL and crossover ceremonies at the end of November. The SM for that troop has a lousy record of follow through and and even worse troop attendence at events like this in the past.

 

My question - would you count a hike for AoL troop outdoor activity if only the SM shows up? If only 1-2 scouts and the SM show up?

 

We had a heated exchange during our committee meeting tonight about this. I feel if the troop's not there it shouldn't count. The committee said we can't penalize the kids for others not showing up. Even if the SM doesn't show up I was told I had to count it for all my kids that did show up. The committee said that since many of the troop memebers can't drive yet and none of the WII could that they (the WIIs) shouldn't be penalized for troop members not coming.

 

Taking that thought 1 step further do I count the hike for 1 kid as the AoL hike and the troop outdoor activity since he missed our AoL hike at camp due to his sister's dance recital? I say not but if I'm giving away advancements why not?

[ScoutNut]

If just your Webelos show up for a hike, then it is simply a Webelos den activity, and can be counted as such. It has nothing to do with Boy Scouts. If just the SM shows up, how is that Boy Scout oriented? I would call the SM 1 or 2 days in advance to find out if this outing is a go or not. If no Boy Scouts then let the Webelos know that the outing will count as a Webelos hike only (as long as it is 3 miles). While the Cub Scout criteria is Do Your Best, a Webelos only hike is NOT a Boy Scout activity.

 

The actual requirement is - With your Webelos den, VISIT at least one Boy Scout-oriented outdoor activity. They do not have to participate in the activity.

 

Does this Troop, or other area Troops, do outdoor activities monthly? How about an outdoor Troop meeting of any sort? Can you visit any of them?

 

Bottom line is that you do not have to answer to your Committee. As Webelos den leader the decision is yours as long as you follow BSA policies, and you are.

 

However, you should be prepared that over half of your Webelos may not be receiving their AOL, or crossing to Boy Scouts at the end of November.

[Oak Tree]

Yeah, there are always gray areas for some of these requirements. The person responsible for signing off the requirement gets to make the call.

 

The part of this requirement that I usually had to fudge on was the "with your den" part. We'd often have one Scout who couldn't make the scheduled activity and would go to some other troop activity on his own. That seemed to meet the intent of the requirement, which as I read it would be to have the Webelos meet with some of the troop, see that Boy Scouts isn't all that scary, and see how the troop runs.

 

I think that in order to count it as a Boy Scout outdoor activity, I would say that there should be at least two Scouts and two adults from the troop. There are tons of troop activities available - it's not that hard to attend one if you want to.

[CPAMom]

I feel your pain. We're finding that joining in with Boy Scout troop activities is far easier said than done. I hate things that are dependent on other people, especially some of the people we deal with. I'd say check it off for sure if it was announced to the Boy Scouts, the SM shows up, but no Boy Scouts chose to attend.

 

I counted a Nat'l Park service project as a pack service project for my son. It was announced as a pack service project. I put it on the pack calendar. All cubs were on notice. No Cubs signed up or showed up. I have no control over this.

[The Blancmange]

I agree with Scoutnut. Why is the Committee gettting involved in this? Their job is to provide support to the program, not interfere with it. If anything, a disagreement over an advancement requirement might be taken up with the CM.

 

My guess would be that one of the committee members is a parent of one of the boys who decided to forego the other opportunities to satisfy the requirement. Remind them of this choice.

 

The fact that I am a cheapskate comes in handy for situations like this. I am registered with both our troop and pack, and in order to avoid buying two shirts, I simply switch shoulder loops and use velcro to switch the position pactch. When someone interjects themself into a situation in which they shouldn't, I can simply take off my patch and offer it to them. Haven't had a taker yet.

 

[AKdenldr]

I agree with the points above. I would not count it if it doesn't fit, and the committee really has no say.

 

It is a disservice to the boys to award them something they didn't earn. It is a disservice to send a boy to a scout troop when they are not somewhat familiar with the outdoors multiage program.

 

Some phone calls need to be made. Confirm with the scoutmaster, if he isn't firm on his committment ask if there is a patrol or ASM that can lead this up.

 

Call each of the disinterested boy's families and discuss the intent of the requirement and lack of interest/attendance when this has been offered in the past. In particular, place the meeting of this requirement in their laps.

 

Really if the boys bridge and the families aren't engaged in scouting, your pack is just passing the problem on to the troop. Boys and their families should be making the choice to join Boyscouts, not just being promoted based on age and time.

 

Thanks for your service to the boys - AK

[trainerlady]

As many of you have assumed there are several boys with parents on the committee - out going CM, incoming CM, treasurer, advancement chair, AWDL, and special events chair. All of these families passed on the outdoor events due to sports or other classes, and due to the drive.

 

I'm glad I'm not the only one that feels the way I do. For years (maybe a decade or more)the WII have taken the easiest way out of AoL and all requirements. I'm the first in anyone's memory that has pushed for full and complete advancement. We were the first campers in over 10 years.

 

Last year's WII counted 1 hike for 3-4 different requirements. That WDL's wife is the out going CC. My boys have played by the rules and completed everything. I just feel like all the work I've put into the boys and the sense of fair play, honesty, and responsibility have gone to pot due to a few, for lack of better words, lazy parents.

 

Sorry for the rant.

[Basementdweller]

Trainer lady why are you preventing the boys from joining boy scouts.

 

The joining requirements say at least 10 years old and having earned the arrow of light. There is nothing about 4th grade graduation in the boy scout joining requirements.

 

"Meet the age requirements. Be a boy who is 11 years old, or one who has completed the fifth grade or earned the Arrow of Light Award and is at least 10 years old, but is not yet 18 years old."

 

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/AdvancementandAwards/joining.aspx

 

Cross those boys over.

 

My son crossed over at 10 and 4 months. he had 13 activity pins. As a matter of fact we don't have a webelos 2 den, why???? because they all cross over as webelos 1's.

 

 

I will say that bickering over outdoor activities with the troop is simple minded. The boy is there or he is not or if the troop didn't show up then it doesn't count. Sounds like you need to work on you level of involvement with the troop.

 

Besides who says you cannot contact another troop for an outing????? Sounds like the SM is taking you guys for granted.

[Lisabob]

"My question - would you count a hike for AoL troop outdoor activity if only the SM shows up? If only 1-2 scouts and the SM show up? "

 

 

Yes. I'd bite my tongue, hold my nose, and sign. Consider that the requirements don't stipulate the number of boy scout troop members who have to participate in the activity. (On the other hand, I wouldn't be the one pushing boys to join a troop like you describe, either)

[trainerlady]

Basement - I'm curious how your boys went to BS at 10 years and 4 months and didn't do any WII at all? The requirements for AoL are 10-1/2 years old, or 6 months after 4th grade graduation and 10 years old, and you must be a Webelos den member for 6 months, along with everything else. AoL requirements are not the same as the BS joining requirements.

 

Also I'm not trying to hold the kids back, I wish we could have gone over in June. I just want them to follow the rules and really do the work. They had at least 8 other opportunities over a 8 month period to go to outdoor events but chose not to go. My son did 5 of them and had a blast. My 2 other completed boys have each done 2-3 events.

 

For 3 families we are actually having a problem deciding where to go. We love all 3 troops, the boys love all 3 troops. Even the pro/con chart we made isn't helping.

 

As for involvement with the troop the curent SM wants nothing to do with the under 14 set. If you can't hike Philmont every 2-3 years he doesn't want to talk to you. I have tried to engage him with the den since Tiger year, no response. You're very right he takes the pack for granted. Last year was the first year a WII went to a different troop. The pack has a 50% crossover rate the troop has a 10% retention rate. The SM has been kicked out of evry troop in town at least once, this is second time around at this church (new priest/CO).

 

Lisabob - I'm actually VERY, VERY disappointed that the parents are heading the boys to this troop. Since our Tiger days the troop has done nothing but let us down - failed to provide a Den chief, failed to help with camping and outdoor activities, charged us rent for camping equipment, lots of empty promises, no action. I have pointed this out to the boys and the parents from day 1. They are staying because they either aren't serious about staying with the program (2 kids), don't want to "defect from the parish/feel they owe it to the parish to stay in a WEAK, DEATH BED troop (3 kids), parents don't want eldest son out of the Pack yet and Dad is new CM for little brother, also almost all the other troops in the area meet at the same time as the pack (1 kid).

 

 

[Basementdweller]

Our group is very active year round, so every boy wants to join the Troop as soon as possible. We family camp twice a year, the webs camp twice with the troop, we go to resident camp.......so they are ready to be boy scouts.

 

 

If the Web I's have completed all of the AOL requirements by crossover time and want to go to the troop I will let them go whether they are 10 or 10 years 11 months. I will not risk losing them out of boredom.

 

We have had parents elect to hold their boys in Webs a second year.......A choice every parent and scout need to make.

[perdidochas]

Basementdweller,

 

The first AOL requirement is:

 

Be active in your Webelos den for at least six months since completing the fourth grade (or for at least six months since becoming 10 years old), and earn the Webelos badge.

 

If the boys aren't at least 10 1/2 or 6 months past the end of 4th grade, they can't earn Arrow of Light.

 

 

Your son, unless it was 6 months past the end of 4th grade, could NOT earn the Arrow of Light and hence could NOT crossover to a troop.

 

[perdidochas]

Basement,

 

Also, if you have a dynamic Webelos program, you're not going to lose the kids due to boredom.

[sherminator505]

I'm thinking "no" on this one. For me, a "Boy Scout activity" implies that the Boy Scout troop is initiating the activity, or at the very least is planning to participate in a significant way.

 

As an aside, I wonder why a troop would take such a casual attitude about this, as it is an excellent opportunity to pull new Scouts into their troop.